Brawls in Hockey

I saw this for the first time yesterday. There is no way he deserves criminal prosecution. If the NHL sees fit to suspend him, which I think their suspension definitely fits, then that's great. However, I think if you get the police involved in this, you have to get them involved in every hockey fight. It's a line you shouldn't cross.

 

interesting take...i'm going to very respectfully disagree, though. when you sucker punch like that...away from the game entirely...completely unprovoked within that game...and you break someone's neck...that's not the kind of thing one "consents" to when he puts on the skates for a game of hockey. it's an intentional act well outside of the scope of the game...mcsorley was prosectued as well, remember.

 

I agree it was a sucker punch, but I was under the impression that he had no idea the guy was there, like Bertuzzi flew across the ice and hit him in the back of the head. In reality, they were jostling with each other right before that, Bertuzzi grabbed the back of his sweater, then punched him in the side of the face. I don't think the punch necessarily fractured his neck either. And honestly, I'm not sure that matters. If in a "normal" NHL fight, let's say a punch killed a player. Do we all of the sudden decide to prosecute?

There are a lot of things going on during a hockey game that would be prosecutable offenses if I did them to you on the street. To me, you have to draw the line at using a foreign object, like a stick, but even that gets hairy. Do you prosecute someone that gives an illegal cross-check that results in injury? Remember when Gretsky was side-swiped a few years ago and he had a concussion (I think)? Do we start prosecuting that as well?

To me, unless there are very extenuating circumstances, like coming from behind and whacking someone in the ear with your stick, you keep the police out of the games and let the league police themselves. Which they've seem to do a pretty good job right here. I mean, Vancouver was on the brink of making a good run in the playoffs. One of their better players has gone and done something against the rules, and now the whole team and himself suffer. I think the punishment definitley fits the "crime" and bringing in the local authorities is unnecessary.

 

I too, think the police should not be involved. I disagreed with their involvement in the McSorely matter (stick swinging) and I disagree with it now. If it happens during the conduct of the game, within the realm of the game (even if outside the rules -- and therefore subject to suspensions/fines/etc) I just feel there is some inherent acceptance of that risk by professional athletes.

As RM95 said...there's just sooo much in professional sports that could be subject to prosecution. It really is a different world.

Do you prosecute a baseball pitcher who intentionally tosses a ball at a players head?

A football player's late hit that causes injury?

Baseball brawls?

Each of these is outside the scope of the game. Each can result in very serious injury -- and often does.

This was a particularly dirty hit. But, unfortunately, not entirely out of the scope of the game.

I expect this will be subject to prosecution. It has to. A similar incident (McSorely) was prosecuted.

But, as you lawyers are fond of saying, I respectfully disagree

 

I think the police have every right to investigate and I am a season ticket holder in the NHL.

If you say the police should not investigate then you say whatever happens on the ice/field/court is above the law. This was an assault plain and simple. If you say that is ok, well how about strangling someone (remember back to when Wilhelm from Ohio State choked Sorgi the QB from Wisconsin) or better yet how about just killing the opponent and knowing the league will take care of it and you will face no criminal charges.

noone is above teh law. That doesn't mean the authorities have to do anything but the police have a right to investigate any crime regardless of where it occurs.

 

If I punch you in the face, 4chuckie, that's assault. If I was to come up to you with a stick and shove you down from behind, that's assault. I guess you think those things should be prosecuted by police as well?

 

I realized my above post opens the door to a 'then that means anything goes' position.

It's just that the actions on the ice, or on the field are subject to league review and are therefore, at least partially, policed in that way. Again, this was particularly dirty play. My feeling is that it was foreseeable within a hockey game, just as late hits, or bean-balls are foreseeble in football or baseball. There is a degree of acknowledgement of that risk by the players and a degree of policing and enforcement by the leagues. Much more so than 'on the street.' As I said, it's a different world.

The police and court systems have plenty to do without having to spend time and resources evaluating these incidents that happen in a context very different from the context in which the court operates.

Just my personal view on where I would like the court and police resources deployed.

 

If you punch someone in a bar and give them a little mark under their eye and they swing back more than likely nothing will happen. If you hit someone they fall backwards, crack their skull open and die you'll probably be going to jail.

 

Well... the media still claimed that Moore suffered from a broken neck... and they want him to die rather than recover...

Folks, Moore suffered from a FRACTURED NECK, not a broken neck... and thank goodness that he should recover quickly... Even his fellow Avalanche teammates are surprised at this...

Naslund's goal as a result of stealing the puck from Moore last week was the best revenge... hopefully fans will now support the entire team and Bert so they will have a smooth sailing under all these hardships...

 

I disagree with the first part, if for no other reason, that's not a accurate description of what constitutes a hockey fight. They let that stuff go on and on until one goes down. If that happens in a bar, someone's getting arrested.

 

If you punch someone in the face and in the act, fall on top of them and break their back, I have a funny feeling that your ass is going to the clink. I dont think that Bertuzzi intentionally tried to slam him down in a way that would break his back. That being said, he was trying to hit him in the head, from behind, and in the process fell on top of him and severely injured him. In any other situation, he would be going to jail. I think he should be prosecuted. I also think that the NHL should keep him out of the game as long as Moore is out. Then when Moore comes back he serves a 20 game suspension.

 

I don't disagree. My point is there is other stuff that goes on in hockey that would merit criminal prosecution in the real world.

 

As long as I chose to press charges yes it could be prosecuted.

 

You are probably right about that.

I know that fighting is a big turn on to fans of hockey but I think that it is actually holding the sport back. Just like in every other sport, I think fighting should be illegal in the game. And I dont mean a 5 minute penalty. If you fight, you are out of the game.

 

My favorite class in law school was Sports Law, which I took in my last semester. Good stuff!

I remember talking about this....the question is whether or not this is the sort of activity you consented to when you stepped out on the ice. Ultimately, that's applying facts to the law, so it's gonna be different in every case and with different factfinders, whether they be juries or judges.

But I think there is certainly enough for a grand jury to say, "yeah...there at least should be a trial." The defense will make the very arguments you're making...and I'm not saying there will necessarily be a conviction. But I think there's certainly a close enough call here to see someone pressing charges and a district attorney moving forward.

 

Not all the time. Many times, it doesn't matter if the victim wants to press charges.

So, I guess that means you're OK with hockey players pressing charges against others when a real world assault occurs on the ice?

 

The police have a right to investigate any crime. If the police are notified there was a crime they may choose to do an investigation.

So if you're playing hockey in the local B league championship game and someone breaks their stick across your face and you call the police, well yes teh police can have an investigation despite teh fac that it took place on a sheet of ice.

So they must decide wheter to have an investigation but they have a right to investigate when tehy have been notified of a crime.

But let me back up:
What would you say if the police did not investigate the Bertuzzi-Moore incident and Moore died (thankfully it sems like he will be fine). I guaranttee every person on this board would be criticizing the local police (and I'm sure since it was in Canada that th mountie jokes would be flying) for not doing an investigation ASAP.
Also remember how ticked off people were that local law enforement did not do an investigation on Dale Earnhardt's car after he died. NASCAR took a lot of heat for doing their own investigation without including law enforement.
The police were just doing their jobs. It will be up to teh investigators to decide if they wantt o proceed with it, and if so the grand jury will decide if their is a case.