What separates Brady and Montana from Moon is that they know when NOT to throw the ball. Though I totally believe the first few seasons with the Oilers scarred Moon for his career. It's hard not get happy feet when you get sacked 5-6 times a game. Just ask David Carr.
Or when you have a system where you basically HAVE to throw the ball, regardless of score (and you only use the run as a changeup when they're playing you to pass), that's a coaching/system problem... not a QB problem. Just like Belicheck doesn't get enough credit for Brady's greatness, the run and shoot isn't getting enough blame for Moon and the Oilers' downfall.
Huh? The run and shoot is what built Moons numbers. A great QB is more than stats and systems. Ya gotta have that clutch gene and Moon did not have it.
You obviously choose to ignore what Moon did in college (rose bowl win), in Canada, and then after he left Houston (where he continued to play at a pro-bowl level well into his 40's). I don't care about his numbers.... just like I don't care about Montana's lack of numbers. He was as good of a QB (with a almost unprecedented combination of arm-strength/accuracy with a big-man's body) during his career as anybody else in the NFL... he just happened to be on the one team that refused to let go of the gimmick (when virtually everybody else in the NFL knew it was a non-sustainable offense), and had some real questionable head-coaches overall. He had teams blow 21-6 and 35-3 playoff game leads in back to back years... that's insane. Clutch gene? Please... Parcells/Belicheck got Vinny Testaverde to lead them to an AFC championship. You're telling me they wouldn't have done at least that (if not more) with Moon?
I'm not justifying an argument. I'm saying making the pro bowl isn't a big deal and you guys need to step away from the pipe if you believe Moon had just as good of a team and coach as quarterbacks like Montana and Aikman had. The only other HOF players Moon even had on offense with him was an offensive lineman (2 of them I believe). How many pro bowl players were on that defense that gave up such a big lead to the Bills backup QB... Just saying. People also seem to forget that Moon had to spend some of his early prime years in Canada. He wasn't allowed to develop in the NFL like a majority of the NFL quarterbacks got to do. But if a team doesn't have the right coach and or management... It doesn't matter who you have on the field. That's what makes Belichick so great because it's easier to play in today's game but harder to coach. Just look at San Francisco... They fired Singletary and became championship contenders with the same team.
No SB's!! So yes Moon could have and Moon had nothing to do with those comebacks? How about not choking away a lead by putting together some sort of drive and keep your defense off the field?
Wouldn't that have something to do with play calling...? Unless you're saying Moon was the offensive coordinator too. Lol...
Thanks for basically proving my point... that by playing in a gimmick system that doesn't even have a tight end on the roster, is incapable of running the ball effectively unless teams are playing them to pass, and in a structure that had even less adjustments than the Kubiak system, you expect them to allofasudden turn into a ball control/run-out the clock/smashmouth team? The guy puts together drives to put his team up 21-6 and 35-3... and yet he needs to put together more drives for his team to win? Those Oilers teams were as talented as ever... but had absolutely zero viable leadership from the owner to the head coach to the coordinators. I guess that's Moon's fault as well.
Oh I see, Moon gets the credit for putting up points in that system in the first half but when he doesnt do jack squat in the second half its the system. Im not saying Moon wasnt a good QB and Im not saying that a QB doesnt greatly benefit from the system he is in. Just saying Moon did not show leadership and poise when his team needed him most and thats what seperates good QB's from great QB's.
When he's on teams that have an ability to lose 21-6 and 35-3 leads in less than a half, then yes... its on the system more than him. Especially a system that had trouble running clock, and also one that teams had a tendency to "catch up with" after they saw it for multiple drives (and when you score as much as they did, opposing defenses definitely saw all the iterations of the run and shoot they needed). Whatever... so if Butler doesn't intercept that ball and the Pats lose, does that mean Brady showed poor "leadership" in that he'd now be on a 3 game SB losing streak? The entire point was that Moon, on a different team/with a coach like Belicheck, likely has a lot more success... vs. Brady being who he is with an idiot for a coach.
The fact that Brady never conceded and put his team in position to win is what makes him great rather than folding like a house of cards. No matter how awful the run and shoot "suddenly" became in the second half don't ya think a great QB could have took it upon himself to audible, exploiting the defense to at least pick up a few first downs? There is a reason Buddy Ryan wanted to kick Gilbrides ass but when you blow leads like that you have to blame some of it on the leadership on the field. Yes Moon may have done better under a Belichek but then again maybe he wouldnt have and it definitely doesnt mean he would have won SB's because of the reasons I stated earlier.
The reasons which we've already established was due to the crappy system and inept coaching? At least you've realized that if Moon was a HOF QB without Belicheck, he certainly wouldn't be "worse" on a team coached by him. I think its a legit question to wonder if Brady would be a HOF QB without Belicheck.
Definitely agree about Brady coming into the right system and may have never even made a name for himself if say he went to the Jets. Its easy to say any QB would be better under Belicheck but it goes beyond talent its also about mental capabilites as well.
I'd say Moon proved some mental toughness by tolerating being racially profiled out of the NFL to begin with (even though he was a clear-cut QB talent coming out of UW)... then coming into a horrid situation in Houston (both race-wise and team-wise), then continuing to have success after being "scapegoated" out of town (he likely isn't a HOF if he retires after being traded by the Oilers). Any player that has success through that sort of adversity gets the benefit of the doubt (from me) that he'd be able to do at least as well as Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Vinny Testeverde, Drew Bledsoe, and Matt Cassel (some of the other QB's that had success while being on a Belicheck defensive team).
Dude... Moon played with a bunch of JAG's. You act like he was on the Love Ya Blue teams. Did Joe Montana win a super bowl with Kansas City...??? Are you going to blame that on his mental capacity... Lol. Having great coaches and guys like Rice, Irving, Gronk, Smith, Moss, etc and or a great defense makes a huge difference. Quarterbacks always get more credit and more blame than they actually should. But I hope the extra money Moon got for coming to Houston instead of going to Seattle where he already won the city over was worth it. I'm sure he has regrets.
LOL dude just stop. You guys are overrating the system too much. No way you can put up the elite numbers Brady has put up and have the success he's had by just being any other above average quarterback. Besides, Belicheck is a defensive oriented coach
And you are underrating Belicheck... severely. He's far more than a "defensive oriented" coach... he's the total package and is involved in every aspect of every gameplan.... but yes, he's also the architect of defenses that took down Montana's 49ers, the unstoppable K-Gun Buffalo Bills, the greatest show on turf Rams, and he had the team prepared for that last play against Seattle by instilling exactly what they were going to run. Again, I highly doubt Brady is a HOF QB with any other team. A lot of Pats fans would agree with that take. I give Brady all the credit in the world for maximizing the situation he's in... but it is most definitely a special situation.
Brady won his four SB's W/O an elite WR. The year they had Moss, they went undefeated in the regular season.
And lets just ignore that Gronkowski is one of the greatest TE's of all-time (in terms of being a receiver), and him being healthy was one of the single biggest difference makers in this year's Patriots team going from pretender to contender again. Hell, Belicheck had one of his few good WR's playing CB as well during one of the SB runs... its how special that TEAM has been. Its pretty damn hard to be that good for 15 straight years in the modern-day era.
