Brad Miller isn't an allstar over yao

Is Miller even the starting center on his OWN team?

 

Quake 99,

You missed what I said on several points:

I said there is not a stat for consistency. However, there is a stat for efficiency.
2003-04 Regular Season Efficiency Rating

Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
Player G EFF
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 46 32.87
2. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers) 33 27.64
3. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 46 27.22
4. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 45 24.00
-
-
20. Yao Ming (Houston Rockets) 47 19.85

Comparing the players rebound and scoring averages to there standard deviations isn't the formula for consistency. Where are the assists too?

I never said Miller is better than Yao and I don't think he is. I do think that Miller is playing better than Yao up to this point in the year.

True, but he is on the all-star ballot as a center. Thus he's up against Yao, Shaq, Dampier at the center position.

You believe Miller is a whiner and a liar based on a quote you "THINK" he said. He seems like an alright guy and he really got under Shaq's skin years ago and that's cool with me.

Yao does have some highlight reel passes and has shown some great vision, but I wouldn't call him a better passes than Brad Miller at this point. Did you see the game last night? Nothing about his passing was impressive last night.

See the above. Just to reiterate since when is the definition of consistency simply using the standard deviations of rebounds and points per game? At least account for assists. Also, so what if Yao is more consistent at averaging 9.3 rebounds per game when Brad Miller averages 10.6 rebounds per game.

Another point you completely missed. I'm not bored at all, which is why I'm posting in this thread. My quote "if it were there would be no discussion and the bbs would be very boring." was referring to you stating "SO THEN WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING THAT MILLER DESERVES". I'm arguing because that's a big function of what goes on a bbs. I don't think it's crazy to pick Brad Miller over Yao for the all-star game, so that's why I'm posting on thsi thread.

 

Yao holds the edge on defense, but Brad Miller also has the advantage of being on the winningest team in the NBA. Similiar to Amare beating out Yao last year for Rookie of the Year.

 

According to this stat, Ben Wallace has better offensive stats than Yao - Wallace is 17th. Do you think Wallace has had a better offensive yr than Yao?

 

Who's more consistent, Shrimpie it's Yao, although you say that's wrong, even though the fact is that Standard Deviation is the most accurate in reflecting stats from the expected norm (in this case, Brad Miller and Yao's respective averages). Your whole argument for Miller to start is based the assumption that he's more consistent, which has been proven false.

Does Vince Carter deserve to start in the ASG? Of course not. Never you mind that he's 11th leading scorer (behind only Paul Pierce amongst EC SF's) even though he just came back from injury; or that the Raptors are a deep lottery team without him. Sooooooo, which EC small forward would you choose over him if he doesn't deserve to start?

 

The efficiency rating also has FG and FT at the same weight, although a FG is 2 points and FT is 1 point. Your point?

 

Chaser,

What are you talking about? That stat is not just offense. It also includes rebounds, blocks and steals.

 

By that assumption then Brad Miller SHOULD also rightfully start over Shaq or Tim Duncan and KG (if both of them are voted as PF). Steve shouldn't come within sniffing distance of the ASG (which wouldn't be totally wrong) even though he is starting. Tinsley should be playing in place of JKidd or Chauncy. The problem is record is, you can be a scrub and still be on a team with a good record. Just look at Darius Songaila.

 

MFW,

You're missing my point completely.

How have you proven that Yao is more consistent by using averages and standard deviations?
1) There is no stat that represents OVERALL consistency.

2) Even if you were to assume that you could show a player's overall consistency by using averages/standard deviation...Shrimpie's stats don't prove it. Shrimpie's stats show that Yao is more consistent at getting his 16/9 then Miller's 15/10. But it also shows that Miller consistently grabs more rebounds.
-What about Miller's assists? If shrimpie actually accounted for assists in his calculations, who would have the higher normalized averages then?
-Is a player that averages 2/2 every night the most consistent player in the league?

3) I wouldn't choose Vince Carter. I'd pick Ron Artest or Paul Pierce.

 

MFW,

Another point that you completely missed again. My point is that you might be able to show Miller is more efficient using stats since there is an efficiency statistic. However, even that is debatable.

The consistency statistic that's been shown so far definitely does not convince me though. It only accounts for points and rebounds.

 

MFW,

I'm not saying that I'd go with Brad Miller over Yao as an all-star only because the Kings have the best record. It's one factor in my selection but obviously not my only one. That should be obvious, but I guess it wasn't to you.

 

Munco,

Please take a closer look as those posts. You are here trying to persuade the world to agree with your opinion. It ain't gonna happen. Just give up and let go ....

 

Bobliu,

I think you should take a closer look at the posts.

If anything people are trying to convince me that
1) My opinion that Brad Miller deserves to be an all-star is crazy.
2) Yao has been more consistent than Brad Miller this year.

I'm replying to what people have posted and they in turn are responding to my posts. I'm not trying to change their stance because what they view as a fact I see as an opinion. I believe they are trying to change my views, which is more likely to happen since I believe choosing Yao vs. Miller as all-stars is debatable as is the question of who is more consistent.

 

May I ask then, what is your definition of consistency? A player is inconsistent if:

1) he produces a lot more bad games than his average
2) he produces a lot more good games than his average

The first one is negative, the second one is of course, positive. If we are talking about consistency, standard deviation as close to the fact as it gets. If SD shows a player is more consistent, it's pretty much etched in gold, carved in stone. Perhaps what you meant is that Brad Miller doesn't have as many bad games as Yao (I guess you can call it the basketball definition of consistency), which once again has been proven false by Shrimpie.

On a team like the Kings, with their offence, it is also FAR easier to be "consistently good" than "consistently bad;" whereas on a team like the Rockets (where our mighty leader skips games), it's the other way around. In fact, if you look at the stats of both Yao and Brad Miller, if you look for consistency, you'd discover that based on their stats, Yao is far more consistent. Yao was on the same team as last year, meaning all other factors remained the same with the exception of his performance, so he is more consistent. Whereas Brad Miller went to a better team and a better offensive team, where his stats fluctuated significantly, to the extent that you don't know what are the Brad Miller stats and what are the Sacramento Kings stats. Either way you look at it, the consistency factor doesn't stack up in your favor.

If SD is not some sort of measurement for consistency, then neither is efficiency. Of course, it's worth mentioning that the same player on a good team usually has better efficiency.

You also contradicted your own point. You made it out to be such a travesty that Vince was voted in the ASG, yet you failed to point out Paul Pierce or Ronron's arguments. Pierce has slightly better stats but his team record is also a bit worse, which counters one of your arguments (ie. the team record factor). Artest has a MUCH better team record (although he certainly didn't lead that team) yet he also has MUCH worse stats, particularly in the PPG field, which counters your other argument (ie. consistency and performance). This makes me perplexed as to what your point is. I have absolutely no problem with debating whether Paul or Ron deserves to start over Vince. What I do have a problem is that you make it sound like Vince starting is a travesty (as if he robbed somebody), despite the facts and your very own points show otherwise.

 

MFW,

To me a consistent player is someone that you can count on to give you reliable, steady numbers and effort. I agree that standard deviation is the closest statistical measure you could use, but I disagree that it's etched in gold. Again, I don't think consistency is a black and white issue. And once again, Shrimpie looked at consistency in rebounds and points. I'm looking for overall consistency. What stat represents that? At the very least you should include assists. Don't assists mean anything to you guys?

I would argue that a big reason that the Kings offense is consistent is because of Brad Miller's play. An argument could also be made that Brad Miller also did not put up as strong numbers last year because he was not the primary low post option (to counter that he should of put up better numbers since he was not attracting as much attention). Again I am arguing that "consistent" can't simply be proven by the standard deviation and averages of rebounding and points stats. If you do thing consistency can be measure by stats, I think you would measure something like this: First account for all the major stats, then weight them, and then come up with an overall score. Next compute the standard deviation. This might do the trick, but an argument could be made for what stats to include and how to weight them. At this time I have not seen this "consistency" stat and as far as I know there is no OVERALL consistency stat tracked by the league.

Once again (3rd time), I'm not saying that efficiency is a measurement of consistency. I am saying that you might be able to say Brad Miller is more efficient than Yao and point to the Efficiency stat. I don't agree with the definition of efficiency, but it is a stat tracked by the NBA unlike consistency. There is not a defined statistic for consistency in the NBA and I don't agree with only looking at points/rebounds as done by shrimpie. If there was a consistency stat, I'm sure it would total a players total productivity and not just look at the averages and standard deviation of points and rebounds.

It can be argued that the team is "good" because its players are efficient. Chicken and egg talk we have going here.

Not sure how I contradicted my own point.
How did I make it out to be a travesty that VC was an all-star? If anyone made it out to be a travesty, it was you MFW....

vs.

Let me reiterate (again)... I don't think it would've been a travesty if Miller was left off the all-star team. On the other hand I've said it's a travesty for people to believe it's no contest between Miller and Yao for the center position this year. I think it's very debatable.

In regards to Carter vs. Artest vs. Pierce, I haven't thought about it as much as Yao vs. Shaq vs. Miller. But I would pick Pierce or Artest over Carter. I'm not going to go into all my reasons but I would say that I think Ron Artest is the defensive player of the year at this point and I think Paul Pierce has had a better year than Vince. Again, just like Yao vs. the other Centers it's quite debatable. I think about different factors before I pick my selections. It's a case by case basis. I'm not going to go deep into the EC Small Forward debate, but the Celtics and Raptors have near identical records unlike the Kings and Rockets. Ron Artest is a defensive player first and that does not show up in the stat box the same way offensive stats do.

MFW,
What did I say in the prior post to make you think I thought it was a travesty to pick VC? I think you put words in my mouth.

In the end choosing Yao/Shaq/Miller is simply an opinion and I'd say it's very debatable.

 

Glad to see that Brad made the all-star team.

Whether Miller deserves it over Yao or not can be debated (and has been in this thread), but most people agree that he really deserves to be on the team this year and I'm glad that he made it.

I watched Miller play when he was in Purdue and with Chicago. He was HORRIBLE. He made huge strides to become the player that he is today. That work ethic is something that Yao should definitely learn some about.

 

So let me see what you are saying. You are saying that all other factors remaining the same between the two, you'd think Brad Miller can be counted on more to perform consistently compared to Yao.

Assists mean a lot to me. I also know that Brad Miller averaged oh about 2.7 less assists last year than this year. Is it because Brad wasn't as good a passer last year? If that's true then Brad Miller made the biggest improvement in his 7 yr career. I also showed you how almost every single one of Miller's stats went up from last year and that he has a career high in basically every category, despite the fact that he's been around the league 7 yrs. In fact, the only stat that he didn't improve upon is his FT %, which actually decreased from last year. Isn't it a coincidence then that this just also happens to be the only stat his teammates can't help him on. I also know that Chris Webber averaged 5.5 dimes last season. If you think about it, Brad Miller is just taking Webber's stats.

You also make it sound as if Jermaine O'Neal took all Brad Miller's stats last season, even though Miller is taking the same amount of shots as last season. So he's not the first option on his team, what about the time he was in Chicago? Chicago in 2001 - 2002 was soooooooooo deep a team that they didn't need Brad Miller's production. Funny thing isn't it, that he basically took the same amount of shots in Chicago compared to now, yet he's production is MUCH lower (including a pathetic 46% FG). Yet when he was traded to Indy with 28 games left, playing with a stud like you said, by your logic his numbers should drop. But nooooooo, it actually went up to 15.1 PPG. He took MANY more shots per game yet shot 56.2%. For the first time in his career he's not considered a scrub any more, PLAYING NEXT TO JERMAINE O'NEAL. So much for your not being the 1st option argument.

Aside from that, the 1st option thing goes both ways. Right now, Yao is the 3rd option on the Rockets, yet putting up similar numbers on a far inferior offensive team. What does that tell you about Yao's efficiency and consistency?

It is also hardly an egg and Chicken problem. I've already posted that last season, WITHOUT Miller AND WITH an injured Webber, the Kings played to the same 720 winning percentage, even after the playoff stretch where every team realized they're in a dogfight and played harder. Superstars (eg. MJ, Wilt) make their teams more efficient. Scrubs (eg. Brad Miller) get more efficient by their team. I have yet to see a great team collapse completely when they lose a role player. Have you?

 

I also forgot to say, do you think Brad Miller is the number 1 option on the Kings right now? Yet he's putting up MUCH better numbers.

The Vince Carter part, you stated the following:

"Just because someone is your favorite player, doesn't mean you think he should be an all-star. Many people vote that way...see Vince Carter, but I don't."

You tell me how we're supposed to interpret it. You made it sound Vince got voted to the ASG cuz he's everybody's favorite player, ASSUMING nobody who voted thought he played well enough to start.

 

Nope. Wrong again MFW. I'm saying that up to this point in the year Brad Miller has been more consistent than Yao.

Brad Miller is playing better this year and some of it definitely has to do with playing on the Kings. I wouldn't say that he's just taking Webber's stats.

Chicago was horrendous and Brad Miller seems to have improved his game since then.

Yao is not the 3rd option on the Rockets. He's at least #2. Not sure you've watched the games. When Yao is in the game he's the #1 or #2 option.

You think Yao is the #3 option on the Rox? What makes you think Yao's the #3 option? We're not watching the same games.

Brad Miller is not a scrub. He's not a superstar, but he's no scrub. Webber missed way more games this year than last.
I've already stated this before, but...
the Kings were without Chris Webber for 15 games all of last year. Webber has already missed 45 games this year. The Kings have the best record in the league. Webber is not there, but Miller is there and Peja has stepped it up.

If you want to try to prove consistency through stats, you'd be closer by doing this...
First account for all the major stats, then weight them, and then come up with an overall score. Next compute the standard deviation. This might do the trick, but an argument could be made for what stats to include and how to weight them. At this time I have not seen this "consistency" stat and as far as I know there is no OVERALL consistency stat tracked by the league.
This is still debatable though.

Vince Carter does make it to the all-star game because he's the most popular player. It is a popularity contest after all. Never said it was a travesty or even anything close to that.

So, according to you...
Yao is the #3 option and Brad Miller is a scrub.

 

Shaq, Miller and Yao are all in. Dampier is out.

lalalala,

I'm glad that some people think it's debatable!