There should be little question that Yao is the better overall player, but the fact that Yao can only bring for about 20 mins a game really does favor Miller.
thank you. hope it'll shut up people who say Brad Miller is more consistent than Yao for good. numbers don't lie.
I think you have to look at the games when Brad Miller does not score well and then look at the assists. It sounds like you computed for the overall points to assists.
If stats don't lie... http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/playerrater RK PLAYER POS FG% FT% 3PM REB AST STL BLK PTS OVR 1 Kevin Garnett, Min SF 2.20 -0.30 -1.21 3.41 1.13 0.34 2.78 1.75 10.10 2 Tracy McGrady, Orl SG -1.03 1.05 2.88 0.08 1.68 0.64 0.07 2.63 8.00 3 Predrag Stojakovic, Sac SF 1.58 2.38 3.09 -0.11 -0.96 0.54 -1.13 1.77 7.18 4 Andrei Kirilenko, Uta SF 0.58 0.58 -0.15 0.50 -0.25 1.72 3.64 -0.07 6.55 5 Paul Pierce, Bos SG -1.75 1.54 1.42 0.49 1.67 1.13 0.07 1.80 6.37 6 Shawn Marion, Pho SF -0.44 0.96 0.32 1.47 -0.60 1.92 1.62 0.69 5.93 7 Stephon Marbury, NY PG -0.27 0.68 0.29 -1.21 3.86 1.57 -1.21 1.00 4.71 8 Sam Cassell, Min PG 1.90 1.05 0.32 -1.31 2.67 -0.00 -1.04 1.06 4.65 9 Jason Kidd, NJ PG -1.58 0.40 1.16 0.00 3.96 1.23 -1.00 0.20 4.39 10 Jermaine O'Neal, Ind PF -0.10 -0.01 -1.39 2.06 -0.94 -0.54 3.94 1.21 4.23 11 Baron Davis, NO PG -2.45 -1.67 2.95 -0.98 2.81 2.56 -0.70 1.34 3.84 12 Tim Duncan, SA PF 2.04 -3.91 -1.36 2.87 -0.15 -0.49 3.42 1.35 3.77 13 Andre Miller, Den PG 0.66 1.57 -1.06 -0.62 2.31 1.47 -0.95 0.37 3.76 14 Dirk Nowitzki, Dal SF 0.34 1.39 0.80 0.84 -0.65 -0.59 0.72 0.81 3.66 15 Brad Miller, Sac C 1.53 0.29 -1.14 1.86 0.83 -0.59 1.06 -0.28 3.56 16 Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Atl PF 1.53 1.95 -1.25 1.54 -0.65 -0.40 -0.74 1.06 3.06 17 Ben Wallace, Det C -0.48 -2.33 -1.39 3.08 -0.94 1.57 4.54 -1.12 2.92 18 Ron Artest, Ind SG -0.74 -0.21 0.40 -0.39 0.34 2.21 0.07 0.44 2.11 19 Donyell Marshall, Tor SF 0.87 -0.31 0.69 0.97 -1.31 -0.25 1.79 -0.38 2.07 20 Michael Redd, Mil SG 0.19 1.20 1.64 -0.35 -0.79 -0.20 -1.34 1.39 1.74 21 Chauncey Billups, Det PG -1.90 2.22 1.71 -1.06 1.34 -0.00 -1.30 0.64 1.65 22 Yao Ming, Hou C 2.35 0.29 -1.43 1.40 -1.36 -1.82 2.01 0.21 1.64 http://www.sportsline.com/nba/playe...rseason/OVERALL PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT % 1. Kevin Garnett, MIN 91.87 99.64 -7.77 44 39.8 24.4 14.1 5.2 49.2 74.0 2. Tracy McGrady, ORL 86.74 100.42 -13.68 47 39.6 27.0 6.0 5.6 42.2 81.4 3. Tim Duncan, SA 84.33 96.90 -12.57 44 37.7 22.4 12.9 3.3 49.6 58.7 4. Peja Stojakovic, SAC 83.55 77.89 +5.66 43 39.6 25.1 6.2 2.1 48.5 92.2 5. Shawn Marion, PHO 82.49 94.63 -12.14 45 40.8 18.7 9.4 2.6 43.0 87.6 6. Paul Pierce, BOS 81.51 91.82 -10.31 47 38.7 23.1 6.9 5.6 40.2 83.2 7. Stephon Marbury, NY 79.17 87.81 -8.64 46 41.2 19.8 3.3 8.8 43.5 80.7 8. Zach Randolph, POR 78.76 56.62 +22.14 44 39.1 21.3 11.0 2.3 47.9 78.0 9. Jermaine O'Neal, IND 78.54 86.17 -7.63 46 36.9 20.8 10.5 2.0 44.0 76.0 10. Baron Davis, NO 78.42 56.47 +21.95 42 40.9 23.4 4.2 8.0 38.7 64.1 11. Michael Redd, MIL 77.89 75.13 +2.76 45 37.6 22.1 5.3 2.3 44.7 86.2 12. Jason Kidd, NJ 77.80 87.98 -10.18 43 37.4 17.0 6.4 9.6 39.3 79.7 13. Sam Cassell, MIN 77.79 83.54 -5.75 44 36.3 21.0 3.2 7.4 49.5 86.6 14. Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 77.07 94.46 -17.39 41 38.4 21.1 8.8 2.7 45.2 86.2 15. Brad Miller, SAC 76.82 72.15 +4.67 44 38.1 14.2 10.5 4.7 51.1 78.4 16. Shareef Abdur-Rahim, ATL 76.67 86.02 -9.35 47 36.4 19.6 9.2 2.4 48.7 87.7 17. Lamar Odom, MIA 75.90 53.33 +22.57 45 38.1 16.8 9.7 4.2 41.7 71.6 18. LeBron James, CLE (Rookie) 75.56 N/A +75.56 42 40.2 20.5 5.8 6.0 41.5 75.9 19. Rashard Lewis, SEA 75.03 82.08 -7.05 43 37.2 18.8 7.1 2.1 44.1 78.9 20. Andrei Kirilenko, UTA 74.75 71.94 +2.81 41 37.2 16.4 8.0 3.4 46.7 80.1 21. Richard Jefferson, NJ 74.14 79.50 -5.36 44 38.3 16.9 5.9 3.4 49.0 77.7 22. Michael Finley, DAL 73.72 78.87 -5.15 41 39.9 18.2 4.9 3.0 43.8 84.4 23. Ron Artest, IND 73.70 70.74 +2.96 45 37.6 17.4 5.2 3.9 42.0 74.4 24. Antoine Walker, DAL 73.30 82.86 -9.56 46 38.0 15.9 9.2 5.4 42.0 52.2 25. Carmelo Anthony, DEN (Rookie) 72.62 N/A +72.62 48 35.8 18.4 6.1 2.8 41.0 74.6 26. Corey Maggette, LAC 72.51 63.64 +8.87 41 35.6 20.3 5.9 3.2 46.0 84.8 27. Vince Carter, TOR 72.50 54.96 +17.54 40 36.9 20.6 4.5 4.8 40.9 82.6 28. Latrell Sprewell, MIN 72.48 79.47 -6.99 44 39.1 18.0 4.2 3.6 41.9 81.7 29. Ben Wallace, DET 72.29 76.52 -4.23 45 39.4 9.8 13.0 2.1 41.8 52.2 30. Chauncey Billups, DET 71.92 74.53 -2.61 46 36.5 18.0 3.7 5.2 38.2 89.2 31. Donyell Marshall, TOR 71.66 77.00 -5.34 43 34.1 14.0 8.7 1.6 47.7 70.3 32. Allen Iverson, PHI 71.63 93.31 -21.68 32 43.0 27.2 3.9 6.0 39.1 75.4 33. Andre Miller, DEN 71.46 75.35 -3.89 48 34.5 16.0 4.4 6.3 46.6 85.3 34. Steve Francis, HOU 71.30 87.38 -16.08 45 39.6 16.4 5.6 5.9 38.9 75.4 35. Eddie Jones, MIA 70.99 58.49 +12.50 45 37.4 18.3 3.5 3.0 40.7 84.3 36. Pau Gasol, MEM 70.80 84.85 -14.05 44 32.2 17.4 8.0 2.6 47.1 70.1 37. Mike Bibby, SAC 70.75 57.77 +12.98 44 33.8 17.3 3.3 5.3 44.8 81.6 38. Yao Ming, HOU 70.58 75.96 -5.38 45 32.6 16.3 9.3 1.5 53.6 78.0
I agree. Dampier deserves some pub too. The answer to your question though is he is playing for a crappy team at a position that will not get more than a pair of players onto the west's squad.
Bill Walton . ( has a boner for yao ) Mark Stein . ( said yao would be a 6 year project ) Steve Kerr . ( cause he dont like Chin*men ) Marty Burns . ( said yao would be a bust ) Charles Barkley . ( said yao would be a bust, had to kiss a donkey's ass, said he hated white people on national TV and in his book a few years ago, doesnt like white people but married to one ) Who cares what they say..Screw them...although francis & yao dont deserve to start for the ASG...I'd still vote for them cause they are the Houston Rockets.
Munco, you just refuse to give up. Since you have trouble understanding correlation coefficient, I will break down Biller's points into 4 quartiles and tell you his average assist numbers in each region. The data is based on 44 regular season games. (Miller's points are distributed from 5 to 35.) In the first quartile (scores ranging from 5 to 10), his assist average is 4.55. In the second quartile (scores ranging from 10 to 14), his assist average is 4.45. In the third quartile (scores between 14 and 17, his assist average is 4.36. In the fourth quartiel (scores between 18 and 35), his assist average is 5.55. Not surprisingly, you will see, statistically, Miller didn't have more assists when he sored less (the -0.02 coefficient of correlation already told you about this, you just refused to accept it; next time don't bet against a formula). I am curious how you are gonna spin this time. Shrimpie
Shrimpie, Three things. 1) I see that when Brad Miller is not scoring, he's still getting 4.55 assists. Therefore, even when he doesn't have a good scoring game, he's still setting his teammates up. 2) I don't think I'm spinning. If anyone has spun, I'd say it's you. Including Yao's preseason stats in your past analysis to prove your point was spinning. 3) I refuse to give up? I thought you had said you were done with this. Remember this?
yao points may also not be that high cause the rockets run a slow paced game while the king run a high paced one. So they would score more points and hence sligthly better stats.
Munco, 1). we are talking about who is more consistent here, Yao or Miller. That's all I care. I am not going to argue with you who is a better passer. I have showed that Yao is more consistent than or at least as consistent as Miller using cold hard stat. Then you claimed that when Miller scores less he offsets that with assists. This can interpreted in two ways. One, Miller assists more when he scores less which makes him more consistent, this has been proved not true. Two, Miller is better at setting up his teammates. If this is what you meant, you essentially switched the topic in the middle of the discussion which is called spin. 2). I made a mistake including the data from preseason and I have corrected it. You made a blind statement regarding the consistence between Miller and Yao, I haven't seen you admit that. 3). I said I am done with this, this being proving you are wrong in claiming Miller is more consistent with simple stat.
Shrimpie, 1) You have shown that Yao is a more consistent scorer than Miller. Yet, you haven't proven he's a more consistent player. Also, you still have not accounted for Mr. Miller's assists in your definition of consistency. My point was that even on an off-night Brad Miller still is getting more assists than Yao. Your inclusion of pre-season data to make a point is a spin. I have not changed the topic in the middle of the discussion, thus no spin on my part. 2) I don't have to admit a thing because you haven't changed my opinion. Brad Miller is a more consistent player than Yao. 3) When you said this... I read that as you're done with this topic. How that translates to you thinking you've proved me wrong, I have no clue. In any case, you haven't proven a thing to me. Good luck!
so you concede that Yao's a more consistent scorer, and rebounder btw. didn't see you admit that before other people proved it as a fact. now let's assume Miller is a more consistent play maker, which is just your opinion without any proof, then why the hell does that make him a more consistent player overall while Yao's evidently more consistent in both scoring and rebounding? does play making carry the more weights than scoring and rebounding COMBINED in your definition of consistency for a CENTER? just try to understand. but in worst case, Miller is not clear cut winner in terms of consistency as you make it out to be.
munco is probably a white dude rooting support for Miller well, who's the better player Miller or Yao? common sense. you put Yao Ming as center for the Kings.... very wide open shots for the kings yao will have easier time getting easy shots much better entry passes to yao ming i bet you if yao was on the kings and was 1st option, he would be averaging more than 20 points. also not to mention Yao gets double teamed, triple teamed, fronted...most of the time he even gets doubled even without the ball and still scores more rofl... i bet you that Kings will glady trade Miller for Yao Ming. and those authors rooting for Miller...what you expect they are white authors come on, Miller over Shaq and Yao Ming rofl..... continue with the b.s. munco.....
Yao scores more and rebounds less. He also doesn't get as many assists. You haven't been following the thread or perhaps you've chosen to ignore things that don't agree with your opinion. I think Brad Miller's assists carry a lot of weight. I've never said it's clear cut either. There is not a set definition in terms of statistics for being more consistent. You MIGHT be able to say Brad Miller is more efficient because there is an efficiency ratio, but even that is disputable. 2003-04 Regular Season Efficiency Rating (from NBA.com) Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G Player G EFF 1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 45 32.60 2. Elton Brand (Los Angeles Clippers) 32 27.63 3. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 45 26.96 4. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 45 24.00 5. Tracy McGrady (Orlando Magic) 47 23.66 6. Predrag Stojakovic (Sacramento Kings) 44 23.48 7. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) 42 22.79 8. Andrei Kirilenko (Utah Jazz) 43 22.44 9. Zach Randolph (Portland Trail Blazers) 45 22.22 10. Jermaine O'Neal (Indiana Pacers) 47 22.19 11. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 47 21.91 12. Shareef Abdur-Rahim (Atlanta Hawks) 48 21.79 13. Jason Kidd (New Jersey Nets) 44 21.77 14. Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) 45 21.56 15. Kenyon Martin (New Jersey Nets) 38 21.18 16. Ben Wallace (Detroit Pistons) 47 21.15 17. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 49 20.98 18. Carlos Boozer (Cleveland Cavaliers) 39 20.62 19. Stephon Marbury (New York Knicks) 48 20.44 20. Yao Ming (Houston Rockets) 46 19.98 There is no set definition for consistency and I haven't agreed with Shrimpie's definition from the start.
Quake99, I think you also haven't followed the thread. I've been called a Yaof and Yao is my favorite player in the league. Read the thread. Not sure why you got personal. In any case, you're wrong. I'm not white. I'd much rather have Yao than Brad Miller. That's not what this discussion is about. Also, who is rooting for Brad Miller? p.s. where is the b.s.? you tried making it a racial thing and that's b.s. i'm just trying to carry on a normal discussion, but your trying to make it into a racial/personal thing. thanks.
Munco, you weird as hell.... say what?!! Yao is your favorite player? you will rather have Yao rather than Miller? SO THEN WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ARGUING THAT MILLER DESERVES TO BE AN ALL-STAR OVER YAO MING? are you on crack or something......ROFL...... you want to talk about Brad Miler's assists? well then, i bet yao will give a hell lot more assists if he was in the kings because of his court vision. not only that Yao gets doubled-tripled team, sometimes even before he gets the ball and still scores more....WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU???
Quake, The first issue was: Is picking Brad Miller vs. Yao as an all-star crazy. -I got into the debate because I felt it's not crazy and I would actually vote for Brad Miller over Yao because I felt he was more deserving and more consistent. The second issue was: Who is more consistent Brad Miller or Yao this year. Shrimpie felt that his statistical analysis comparing the players rebounds and points and standard deviations proved Yao was more consistent. I did not feel that proved Yao was more consistent. I don't think this is a black and white issue, which Shrimpie seems to believe. It's a grey/debatable issue. Fact: Yao is Chinese. It is not a fact that Yao is more consistent than Brad Miller. Also, Shrimpie's analysis did not account for Miller's assists. Just because someone is your favorite player, doesn't mean you think he should be an all-star. Many people vote that way...see Vince Carter, but I don't. I agree that if Yao were on the Kings he'd get more assists, but he's not. Is Yao a better passer than Brad Miller? What if Yao were on Chicago? He might be averaging 20 ppg? What if Miller were on the Rockets? He might be averaging 10 ppg. My point is that I didn't use that in my logic to pick an all-star center and I think that's perfectly reasonable. The main point is there's many ways to look at these things and that's why there is a debate. It's not a fact that Yao is more consistent or that he should be an all-star, if it were there would be no discussion and the bbs would be very boring.
"Shrimpie felt that his statistical analysis comparing the players rebounds and points and standard deviations proved Yao was more consistent. I did not feel that proved Yao was more consistent." rofl....haha standard deviations and concrete data, that's empirical evidence for you....total scientific objective thinking that proves Yao is more consistent, not influenced by subjective thinking or whether you think yao is more consistent or not. you do know scientific data + evidence > subjective thoughts right? "Is picking Brad Miller vs. Yao as an all-star crazy. -I got into the debate because I felt it's not crazy and I would actually vote for Brad Miller over Yao because I felt he was more deserving and more consistent." haha. hell yeah it's krazy, just like those sportswriters picking Miller(can't even take over a team) over Shaq(3 time champion, final MVP, most dominant player).....haha fine it is not as krazy, but still Yao is better than Miller. just think about it...yao can do fadeways, turn around, spin move, post moves, hook shots.....you know deep down he's better. kobe scored like around 15ppg in his second year but ppl knew he was going to be really good because of the dunks and athletic ability he showed....and he got voted in the all-star game. MILLER IS NOT EVEN A CENTER ANYWAYS......VLADE TAKE THE POSITION FOR THE KINGS. and i think there was a quote by miller saying he was doubled teamed, tripled team by the spurs and he was glad the kings won and he only scored 7 points. rofl...only duncan was guarding him, what a liar and whiner, saying you got doubled, tripled teamed when duncan owned his ass. so miller is good huh? still want to vote for a liar and whiner like him? haha =) "I agree that if Yao were on the Kings he'd get more assists, but he's not. Is Yao a better passer than Brad Miller? " hell yeah Yao is a better passer. what about the bowling pass, behind the back passes, no look passes, hook passes HUH? ROFL.... "What if Miller were on the Rockets? He might be averaging 10 ppg. " ROFL...with steve francis and cuttino mobley, maybe less "It's not a fact that Yao is more consistent or that he should be an all-star" HO HUM, YAO NOT MORE CONSISTENT? go look at the empirical scientific data and the standard deviation. Yao should be an all-star. 1 million+ votes > your irrelevant opinion whether yao should be an all-star or not HAHA "if it were there would be no discussion and the bbs would be very boring. " you think this thread is the only discussion available here? HAHA. there are plenty of discussions going on at clutchcity. and if it gets boring, then don't come here
The offensive stats for Yao and Miller are pretty even. You can argue either way. But you have failed to consider their impact on defense. Yao blocks and changes so many shots in the lane. I don't think players are as afraid of challenging Miller in the lane as they are against Yao.
