I think your post is pretty sensible Deuce Rings. I'm not outraged that Yao annihilated Miller in voting. I did however feel that it's absurd to think that Yao should clearly be an all-star over Miller. I'd go with Miller but I can definitely see why people would say Yao. I can't understand how people think it's not even close though. That was my issue.
Except that just goes to show what Brad Miller is doing. He has filled in on a team that hasn't had Webber, and got rid of Keon Clark, Scot Pollard, and Turkoglu, and they haven't lost anything at all. The Pacers were the youngest team in the NBA, and made a quantum coach upgrade from Zeke to Rick Carlisle. Carlisle is the only rival to JVG in terms of being able to create a dominant defense. oliver67- You do realize Carlisle turned the Pistons into an ECF team from a lottery joke, and was COTY a couple years ago, right? Carlisle's firing had extremely little to do with his on court performance.
I'm a bit complexed on this whole "consistency" thing. Does "consistency = better"? Even assuming that Yao goes through more stretches of bad games, which may or may not be true since I don't watch the Kings, does that make him a worse player? Because if Yao puts up similar numbers to Miller with more stretches of bad game, it meant that he also had more stretches where he carried the Rocket's offense. Where as Miller basically never takes the team on his shoulders in many games, because he's "consistently" good, but never great. Also, the Kings average aroud 95-100 points a game. Their players get more opportunities to score because of their style. Van Gundy, on the other hand, slows the game to a crawl. So the Rockets average only about 85 points a game, with fewer possessions. So not all points and assists are created equal. It would be like saying a person getting 10 points on 5 shots would be the same as a person getting 10 points on 8 shots. The same concept goes for assists. Yao is simply a better player than Miller, no questions asked. If you ask the Kings to trade Miller for Yao just for this year(takes away the age factor), they'd do it in a heartbeat.
QUOTE]Originally posted by munco i've argued this a bunch of times but Miller deserves it more than Yao. In fact I haven't seen a single analyst say Yao should get it over Brad Miller. I love the Rockets but looking at it objectively B. Miller deserves it over Yao and Shaq...[/QUOTE]
SHAQ HAS MISSED HALF OF THE LAKERS GAMES THIS SEASON According to NBA.com Shaq has played in 23 games this season. Yao has played in 45 games this season. Let the truth be told.
Definitely a good catch whats up. I started posting yesterday i thin on the Miller/Yao debate in another thread and I posted because people were stating it was CRAZY to pick Miller over Yao. People were arguing Yao over Miller, so I countered with how I would pick Miller over Yao. I did post in the past that I'd go with Miller over Yao. But my main argument this time was that it's not absurd to go with Miller over Yao. [/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE] Munco, this can go on for days and days (trust me, I know) You will never get Yao fan to look rationally at his idol. You can even post something that is statistically true and he will not accept it.
I think people definitely look at "consistency" better. I think Yao's inconsistency has really hurt the Rockets. Although I think the root of the problems are the Rockets guards and not Yao. I think being consistent makes someone a better player. Miller is a good player, but I don't think he'll ever be great. I believe Yao is a good player that will eventually be great. I agree that the Kings offensive system leads to more offense than the Rockets, but they also have better players than the Rockets. The argument could be made that if Brad Miller were on a crappier team he would put up bigger numbers because he would be the focus of the offense. An argument to that argument could be that his assists would go down and he'd face more double teams.
You see, there's one thing wrong with this argument. Last season, without Webber for I think 18 games (and without Miller obviously), the Kings played to the same 721 winning percentage. The season before that, without Webber for EVEN MORE games (27), the Kings played to an even better 745 winning percentage. While I don't doubt that the Kings are a better team with Webber, they certainly don't start sucking without him. And of course, Miller's game isn't even close to Webber's game. By the same token, the Pacers are actually better this year. You seem to attribute it to Carlisle, I'll come back to that in a bit. What I think is that people underestimate the value of Peja, Bibby, Jackson and Divac. Think about this: 1. Webber averaged 5.5 APG last year, this year where did it go? What a coincidence, Brad Miller's APG went up from a meagre 2 to 4.7 2. Brad Miller is playing in his 7th season. While that is no Malone like career, it definitely ain't a short one either. Yet what an oddity, look at the following: a) second highest career PPG, 14.2 (03-04), last year, 13.1 b) highest career shooting percentage, 51.1% (03-04), last year, 49.3% c) highest career APG, 4.7 (03-04), last year, 2.1 d) highest career RPG, 10.5 (03-04), last year, 8.3 e) highest BPG, 1.34 (03-04), last year, 0.59 f) highest points in a game, 35 (03-04) g) higest FGM in a game, 12 (03-04) h) highest FGA in a game, 20 (03-04) i) most D Reb in a game, 15 (03-04) j) most boards in a game, 17 * 3, all 3 in (03-04) k) most dimes in a game, 11 (03-04) l) most steals in a game, 5 (03-04) m) most blocks in a game, 4 * 3, 2 of 3 times in (03-04) So who do you think helped who more? Brad Miller helped the Kings or the Kings helped Brad Miller? As for Carlisle, let me say first that I think he's PHENOMENAL coach. I think the Pistons are stupid to fire him, considering we all know what Larry Brown is after. Having said that though, can Carlisle start coaching that well right off the bat? Remember, Carlisle was hired right before the season and he had (just like everybody else), couple of preseason games to put the team together. With this AND the Pacers supposedly losing an all-star calibre player in Brad Miller, conventional wisdom would suggest that they lose. Yet the Pacers have a great record, what's more, they started off well. That would suggest that Brad Miller's impact isn't nearly what you suggest it to be. I would also like to say a jump from a 585 winning percentage last season to 723 this season is no small feat. Even if you assume Rick is GOD, the odds are stacked against Brad Miller.
The Kings didn't start last season without Webber; they started without Mike Bibby. Webber didn't go down until around the All-Star Break. Indiana is better this year than they were last year because Isaiah Thomas can't coach his way out of a broom closet; he did less with more than any coach in recent NBA history.
btw, it's been half season and Rockets fans are still saying the team has chemistry problems/new system/whatever, yet according to your logic, the Pacers have no such problem. So either the Pacers players are EXTREMELY smart or our players are EXTREMELY stupid. Either way I'd be depressed about it.
The funny part is I've been called a Yao Only Fan (YAOF) on this board before. Now I'm the anti-Yao fan. I really tried looking at this objectively and I've stated that some of the points that others arguing against me were good. However, arguing with a lot of the guys does seem pretty pointless. BTW my favorite player in the league is Yao. I have all sorts of Yao stuff like bobbleheads, basketball cards, a jersey. I think he's going to be dominant, but he has a way to go. Munco, this can go on for days and days (trust me, I know) You will never get Yao fan to look rationally at his idol. You can even post something that is statistically true and he will not accept it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Does it make it right? Moochie consistently sucks. Doesn't make him valuable. If you compare two players who both averages 20 pts a game. One player scores 20 pts every night. The other score between 10-30 every night. What would make you think one player helps his team win more games than the other? Miller score more points on a crappier team? Don't kid yourself. Miller's doesn't have the skills to be the focal point of an offense. Yao does. A better way to look at it is to see how Yao would play if he had single coverage every night. In most of the games I've seen, Yao absolutely dominates against single defenders. The guy easily puts up 20+ pts on 60% shooting if he were single-covered every game. Where as we know Miller is only a 16pt scorer while being single-covered or open all the time.
The Kings' depth was much greater in the previous two seasons; you can't compare this year's bench rotation (Bobby Jackson, Anthony Peeler, Tony Massenburg, Daruis Songaila, Gerald Wallace) favorably with last year (Bobby Jackson, Jim Jackson, Keon Clark, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Damon Jones) or the year before (Bobby Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Scot Pollard, Gerald Wallace). In 2001-02, the Kings had seven players averaging double figures, and in 2002-03, they had a bench rotation that probably could have won 40 games in the east. That the Kings have done so well to this point can be largely attributed to four things: 1. Brad Miller's seamless integration into the Kings' offense, and surprisingly good play. 2. Peja Stojakovic's emergence as a go-to player. 3. A healthy Mike Bibby (he never fully recovered from that broken foot last season, and his play showed it). 4. A favorable home schedule for the first half of the season.
What are you arguing anymore? I'm not saying Brad Miller isn't a product of the Kings- he is. It doesn't dispute the fact he is having an excellent season. This is not saying we could swap Yao for him and be a better team. The guy is having the best season of his career on a very good team. His past has nothing to do with this. The all-star game is supposed to be a show of the league, and display the guys having great seasons. The all-star starters are voted on by the fans, and so the fans determine who they want to see. I want to see Yao, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize Brad Miller is having an excellent season. This is like arguing Cassell shouldn't be an all-star this year because he's been surrounded with more talent (KG, Spree) than he ever has before. Further, outside the assist numbers and maybe the blocks, these totals are not really that far out of the ballpark for Miller. He's getting 7 more MPG this year over last- his FG% is just 2% higher than his career average, he's scoring 1 more ppg than last year, his turnovers are up, and his rebounds are up 2 per game (which is easily attributed to the minutes increase and the higher pace of the Kings games, leading to more shot attempts), Apparently you didn't read everything I said. The Pacers were the youngest team in the NBA last year- with talents like Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Harrington (plus Tinsley, Bender) all barely breaking their mid 20s if even, they're naturally going to improve from year to year. As Citrus said, the difference between Thomas and Carlisle is huge- Thomas was a horrible coach. You're also comparing a very small sample size- it's possible the Pacers will come back to earth. PS-No one ever accused the executors of our offense of being the brightest ball players.
Consistent meant consistently good. I'd rather a guy score 20 points every night then alternate between 10 and 30. I think when a team can count on you for 20 every night it's more valuable than a streaky/inconsistent player. I think Miller could put up bigger numbers on a crappier team. He would never be a big time superstar, but on a crappy team he'd definitely score/rebound more. but that's not the situation.
http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/playerrater RK PLAYER POS FG% FT% 3PM REB AST STL BLK PTS OVR 1 Kevin Garnett, Min SF 2.20 -0.30 -1.21 3.41 1.13 0.34 2.78 1.75 10.10 2 Tracy McGrady, Orl SG -1.03 1.05 2.88 0.08 1.68 0.64 0.07 2.63 8.00 3 Predrag Stojakovic, Sac SF 1.58 2.38 3.09 -0.11 -0.96 0.54 -1.13 1.77 7.18 4 Andrei Kirilenko, Uta SF 0.58 0.58 -0.15 0.50 -0.25 1.72 3.64 -0.07 6.55 5 Paul Pierce, Bos SG -1.75 1.54 1.42 0.49 1.67 1.13 0.07 1.80 6.37 6 Shawn Marion, Pho SF -0.44 0.96 0.32 1.47 -0.60 1.92 1.62 0.69 5.93 7 Stephon Marbury, NY PG -0.27 0.68 0.29 -1.21 3.86 1.57 -1.21 1.00 4.71 8 Sam Cassell, Min PG 1.90 1.05 0.32 -1.31 2.67 -0.00 -1.04 1.06 4.65 9 Jason Kidd, NJ PG -1.58 0.40 1.16 0.00 3.96 1.23 -1.00 0.20 4.39 10 Jermaine O'Neal, Ind PF -0.10 -0.01 -1.39 2.06 -0.94 -0.54 3.94 1.21 4.23 11 Baron Davis, NO PG -2.45 -1.67 2.95 -0.98 2.81 2.56 -0.70 1.34 3.84 12 Tim Duncan, SA PF 2.04 -3.91 -1.36 2.87 -0.15 -0.49 3.42 1.35 3.77 13 Andre Miller, Den PG 0.66 1.57 -1.06 -0.62 2.31 1.47 -0.95 0.37 3.76 14 Dirk Nowitzki, Dal SF 0.34 1.39 0.80 0.84 -0.65 -0.59 0.72 0.81 3.66 15 Brad Miller, Sac C 1.53 0.29 -1.14 1.86 0.83 -0.59 1.06 -0.28 3.56 16 Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Atl PF 1.53 1.95 -1.25 1.54 -0.65 -0.40 -0.74 1.06 3.06 17 Ben Wallace, Det C -0.48 -2.33 -1.39 3.08 -0.94 1.57 4.54 -1.12 2.92 18 Ron Artest, Ind SG -0.74 -0.21 0.40 -0.39 0.34 2.21 0.07 0.44 2.11 19 Donyell Marshall, Tor SF 0.87 -0.31 0.69 0.97 -1.31 -0.25 1.79 -0.38 2.07 20 Michael Redd, Mil SG 0.19 1.20 1.64 -0.35 -0.79 -0.20 -1.34 1.39 1.74 21 Chauncey Billups, Det PG -1.90 2.22 1.71 -1.06 1.34 -0.00 -1.30 0.64 1.65 22 Yao Ming, Hou C 2.35 0.29 -1.43 1.40 -1.36 -1.82 2.01 0.21 1.64 http://www.sportsline.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/OVERALL PLAYER 2003 2002 CHNG GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT % 1. Kevin Garnett, MIN 91.87 99.64 -7.77 44 39.8 24.4 14.1 5.2 49.2 74.0 2. Tracy McGrady, ORL 86.74 100.42 -13.68 47 39.6 27.0 6.0 5.6 42.2 81.4 3. Tim Duncan, SA 84.33 96.90 -12.57 44 37.7 22.4 12.9 3.3 49.6 58.7 4. Peja Stojakovic, SAC 83.55 77.89 +5.66 43 39.6 25.1 6.2 2.1 48.5 92.2 5. Shawn Marion, PHO 82.49 94.63 -12.14 45 40.8 18.7 9.4 2.6 43.0 87.6 6. Paul Pierce, BOS 81.51 91.82 -10.31 47 38.7 23.1 6.9 5.6 40.2 83.2 7. Stephon Marbury, NY 79.17 87.81 -8.64 46 41.2 19.8 3.3 8.8 43.5 80.7 8. Zach Randolph, POR 78.76 56.62 +22.14 44 39.1 21.3 11.0 2.3 47.9 78.0 9. Jermaine O'Neal, IND 78.54 86.17 -7.63 46 36.9 20.8 10.5 2.0 44.0 76.0 10. Baron Davis, NO 78.42 56.47 +21.95 42 40.9 23.4 4.2 8.0 38.7 64.1 11. Michael Redd, MIL 77.89 75.13 +2.76 45 37.6 22.1 5.3 2.3 44.7 86.2 12. Jason Kidd, NJ 77.80 87.98 -10.18 43 37.4 17.0 6.4 9.6 39.3 79.7 13. Sam Cassell, MIN 77.79 83.54 -5.75 44 36.3 21.0 3.2 7.4 49.5 86.6 14. Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 77.07 94.46 -17.39 41 38.4 21.1 8.8 2.7 45.2 86.2 15. Brad Miller, SAC 76.82 72.15 +4.67 44 38.1 14.2 10.5 4.7 51.1 78.4 16. Shareef Abdur-Rahim, ATL 76.67 86.02 -9.35 47 36.4 19.6 9.2 2.4 48.7 87.7 17. Lamar Odom, MIA 75.90 53.33 +22.57 45 38.1 16.8 9.7 4.2 41.7 71.6 18. LeBron James, CLE (Rookie) 75.56 N/A +75.56 42 40.2 20.5 5.8 6.0 41.5 75.9 19. Rashard Lewis, SEA 75.03 82.08 -7.05 43 37.2 18.8 7.1 2.1 44.1 78.9 20. Andrei Kirilenko, UTA 74.75 71.94 +2.81 41 37.2 16.4 8.0 3.4 46.7 80.1 21. Richard Jefferson, NJ 74.14 79.50 -5.36 44 38.3 16.9 5.9 3.4 49.0 77.7 22. Michael Finley, DAL 73.72 78.87 -5.15 41 39.9 18.2 4.9 3.0 43.8 84.4 23. Ron Artest, IND 73.70 70.74 +2.96 45 37.6 17.4 5.2 3.9 42.0 74.4 24. Antoine Walker, DAL 73.30 82.86 -9.56 46 38.0 15.9 9.2 5.4 42.0 52.2 25. Carmelo Anthony, DEN (Rookie) 72.62 N/A +72.62 48 35.8 18.4 6.1 2.8 41.0 74.6 26. Corey Maggette, LAC 72.51 63.64 +8.87 41 35.6 20.3 5.9 3.2 46.0 84.8 27. Vince Carter, TOR 72.50 54.96 +17.54 40 36.9 20.6 4.5 4.8 40.9 82.6 28. Latrell Sprewell, MIN 72.48 79.47 -6.99 44 39.1 18.0 4.2 3.6 41.9 81.7 29. Ben Wallace, DET 72.29 76.52 -4.23 45 39.4 9.8 13.0 2.1 41.8 52.2 30. Chauncey Billups, DET 71.92 74.53 -2.61 46 36.5 18.0 3.7 5.2 38.2 89.2 31. Donyell Marshall, TOR 71.66 77.00 -5.34 43 34.1 14.0 8.7 1.6 47.7 70.3 32. Allen Iverson, PHI 71.63 93.31 -21.68 32 43.0 27.2 3.9 6.0 39.1 75.4 33. Andre Miller, DEN 71.46 75.35 -3.89 48 34.5 16.0 4.4 6.3 46.6 85.3 34. Steve Francis, HOU 71.30 87.38 -16.08 45 39.6 16.4 5.6 5.9 38.9 75.4 35. Eddie Jones, MIA 70.99 58.49 +12.50 45 37.4 18.3 3.5 3.0 40.7 84.3 36. Pau Gasol, MEM 70.80 84.85 -14.05 44 32.2 17.4 8.0 2.6 47.1 70.1 37. Mike Bibby, SAC 70.75 57.77 +12.98 44 33.8 17.3 3.3 5.3 44.8 81.6 38. Yao Ming, HOU 70.58 75.96 -5.38 45 32.6 16.3 9.3 1.5 53.6 78.0
Munco, I don't understand where you got the idea that Miller is more consistent than Yao. I just pulled some data of both Miller and Yao from nba.com and did some calculations myself in Excel. Here is what I have got (I assume you have graduated from high school, so you know what an average value means and what a standard deviation means and how they are related to consistency): B Miller: Points average: 13.38, points standard deviation: 6.22504066; Yao Ming: Points average: 16.70588235, points standard deviation: 5.886574955 B. Miller: Rebound average: 9.807692308, rebound standard deviation: 3.683766516. Yao Ming: Rebound average: 9.31372549, rebound standard deviation: 3.209300211. You can argue whatever you want, but make sure get your facts correct. Shrimpie
