v3- CCR did the chart, but I was the one to do live in game touches,shots,to's and whatever. I'm not a guy that needs "validation" for basketball knowledge. Its plain to see, yet some guy has to dream up numbers to say otherwise. The numbers 2 yrs ago said with hayes starting, the rox had the greatest +/- of all the starting 5's, but watching the players wouldve told u utah had more talent. Numbers tell us the rox are 5th best in pts per 100 poss, watching the game will tell you they allow 45% fg and guys get by their perimeter and they're small at the 4 spot. Numbers don't tell you the entire story. When u can't score over kyle korver, another team plays a 6'2 pg on u the whole game and 2nd level wings are getting by u at will, that's not acceptable. Like Gater said, people act like it had to be gay and that wasn't the case. I was pushing Brewer because he fit squarley into what the rockets needed. A big wing who can defend,slash,finish at the rim and even handle some. Hell that brewer, that's childress, that's outlaw, that's a lot of young wings. Not to mention, those guys still had upside. So now the rockets have a guy that does those things like wafer and everyone is shocked. Is he a good defender? No. Does he make errors and get out of control? Yes. So wouldn't sane reasoning say young guy make errors, but u can always have the vet behind that pick as insurance.
GATER, you've made up your mind already on players like Battier. Anything he doesn't do well will register more prominently in your brain, and the things he does well that helps his team -- the stuff his coaches see and appreciate him for -- you consciously or subconsciously will overlook the importance of. I'm sorry if that sounds dismissive, but that's the best explanation I can come up with for why when you pay attention to "little things" with Battier, you mostly see the bad, and when most everyone else does it (including the Rockets) they mostly see good. Moreover, it's not just about observing all the "little things" Battier doesn't do well and he does do well. You can count it all up, but then the issue is how you put a value on each of them -- i.e. how many points is the team gaining or losing with respect to their opponent because of it? This is stuff the Rockets are tracking very closely for every player. You think that you can watch a game live on TV, and you instantly know that Battier isn't that good. I'll watch it, and come to a different conclusion. But ultimately, as much as we care about how our team performs, it's the team itself that needs to understand player valuation and they're the ones that pour in the most time and effort and know-how to get it right.
Oh, you got that 45% number from watching the game? Not from a stat sheet? Sure. If you watched the game and paid attention to other stuff like 3-pointers allowed, defensive rebounding, and keeping teams off the line (all areas the Rockets are very good in), maybe you'd see why the "numbers" suggest that the Rockets are actually a pretty good, though not great, defensive team. And your ideal roster would look something like the LA Clippers right now. They've got all the players you'd love -- Baron Davis, Marcus Camby, Zach Randolph, Al Thornton, Ricky Davis, Chris Kaman, etc. With that collection of athleticism, talent, and size, how can you go wrong? They're 13-43 right now, if you didn't know.
durvasa, there are a lot of things both +/- that happens in the game. My coach told me that anything up to 4v4 is a fast break. 2 on 2, 3 on 3, 2 on 1, 3 on 2. If yao gets the rebound, kicks it to brooks on the push and scola is on 1 wing and battier is on the other, but shane stops at the 3 pt line, where is the stat for that? Watch how many times he misreads or never reads the defense when he dumps it to yao. He will dump it down, shallow cut to the other side and his man will go double yao when basketball 101 says if your man leaves you to double, walk to the basket. Now I know he's suppose to be the duke grad and high iq guy, but he can score a extra 2-4 pts just by being offensively aware.
I'm not asking you to "validate" your basketball knowledge. I'm asking you to simply chart Battier's activities throughout the game. Since you did it for Yao, doing it for a limited player like Battier should be pretty simple for you. Since his defensive contributions are also in question, I'd like his activities on that side of the court also. Maybe the rest of us aren't as astute as you and Kwame. I would just like for you to illustrate this by charting Battier's contributions in a game on both sided of the ball (with game clock/time/quarter annotations so the rest of us can look at the vid and follow along with you). I really don't see why you and Kwame would be reluctant to do this. I would think you would be eager to do this to finally put a picture to your words that you have been posting over and over again. And again, are we criticizing Battier or DM/CD? You guys act like we traded 3 first round picks for 1 first round pick. The Eddie Griffin trade was far worse then the Battier trade. Now that trade I can say really hurt us. To sit there and continually second guess the Battier trade and say that the Rockets would have been better off with whatever your idea is/was is speculation at it's finest. Can you actually say that we would have gone beyond the first round with Ronnie Brewer?
durvasa, I get 45% from watching games and the fg%. I can see in a 82 possesion game, 45% is the avg of 47 and 43. So that means 66% of the time, the opposition is shooting 45% or better. Its not rocket science and why would my team look like the clippers? BTW, they have won more playoff games and series in the tracy-yao era than the rockets have.
Is that what you want? Make some playoff noise for 1 year then lottery hell for decades? That's pretty low expectations for an ardent fan like you.
Coaches have differently philosophies, and college and the NBA are two different animals. Here are some reasons for it. First, Shane is a better open 3-point shooter than he is a finisher in transition -- something I'm sure you'd agree with. The open 3-point shot is one of the most efficient shots in basketball, and its why teams have increasingly devised offenses to get more 3-point looks (look at the trend over the years). Second, if you choose to push it when you don't have a clear numbers advantage, spacing is important. If you're going 3-on-3 or 4-on-3 on the break, you can't have everybody going to the rim (particularly when they aren't great athletes). You get better spacing and a greater chance at an open look if you spread it out a bit by having one guy go to the line. All NBA teams do this. A third reason is if you choose to push it when you don't have a clear numbers advantage and you miss, you instantly give the other team an opportunity to push it in the other direction. How often do we see teams screw up a fast break, and then allow the other team to get an easy score on the other end? Shane's responsibility on the team is to be the first one back on defense. I'd like to know how many times that happens over the course of a game. The play is for Battier to clear out to the other side to give Yao more room to operate. We run it several times a game. Shane's job is to space the floor, and that's generally what that does for us. Sometimes, his defender turns around and tries to trap Yao. Then it becomes a matter of timing. How quickly does Yao recognize the trap and find players under the basket? Is there perhaps a third defender in the paint (for the 4-point) that would prevent Shane from getting open in there? If so, would it make more sense for Yao to turn and throw the pass to Shane in the opposite corner for a wide open corner 3 (the most efficient shot in basketball)? Again, I'd like to know how often that particular situation occurs, and what the Rockets typically get out of it. It's something I'll look for.
I was actually being funny v3. I'm actually a all or nothing guy. I don't care about winning a 1st rd series, its all about the rings to me.
Suppose the Clippers and the Rockets (sans McGrady) are fully healthy. Run through their respective rosters, and tell me which team you like more. You constantly pump up qualities that the Clips have in abundance, and you dismiss the stuff the Rockets have valued (cohesion on defense, playing efficiently, valuing basketball smarts over size). And tracking FG% is fine. I'm just saying that there's more to defense than FG% which you apparently don't pay attention to while watching the game. And that's why it is lost on you why the Rockets are actually a good defensive team.
durvasa, u know I respect what u say, but I'm going to say u are wrong in a lot of things u say in your last post. First, the 3pt shot is one of the lowest % shots on the court. It has been used and abused and to some with success and not so muxh so. 23'9 is 23'9 and if it was so efficient, guys wouldn't shoot 36% so much. I understand the stop trail guy, but filling the lane can create more stress on the defense than him stopping. In all fairness, he isn't the only rocket to do it cause I see Artest do it too. Next, there isn't a coach, especially a guy like adelman that tells a player to clear out without reading the defense. He does it more than u think and normally his man is the one digging the ball from yao. I understand " clear out", but on the clear out, the offensive cutter has to be aware. Once he dumps and starts his shallow cut, if his man turns and looks to yao, he should stop in the paint for a easy layup or create a passing angle at the ft line for a short jumper. Adelmans offense is read and reaxt or flex. There are no set plays, just sets with reads off of them. Now if you can't see or believe that, then I don't know what to say.
When have I pumped up the clipps? I've said they have some good players that I would like to have like Camby and a guy on the bench like ricky davis, but I've never said they were title worthy just like I said the rox aren't title worth either. [qoute]And tracking FG% is fine. I'm just saying that there's more to defense than FG% which you apparently don't pay attention to while watching the game.[/quote] What's more important than opp fg% and ppg? It doesn't get any simplier my friend. Now maybe I'm a caveman in my thinking and haven't caught on yet, but the best defensive teams are normally top 5 in these categories. Like I said, u can new age and flip it, but in the duncan era, the spurs were top 3 in these 2 cats. When jvg and tt were here, the rox were top 5 even during the injury yr. Last yr the rox were top 5 in the 2 cats, this yr, they're not even close.
To say the 3pt shot is inefficient is just plain ignorant. First of all its worth 50% more than a two pointer so to compare percentages between the shots you must multiple the 3pt shot by 1.5. So your actual field goal percentage for a 36% 3pt shooter is actually 54%. Now of course, when you take the 3pt shot is key. For example, if you're on a fast break and you have a 80% chance of making a layup, thats obviously the better choice. HOWEVER, if you're in a half court set and you're able to get a good look at a 3, it would be ridiculously stupid not to take it.
There is a reason why teams leave guys open at the 3pt line. Its 24 ft from the hoop. If it was such a great high % shot, how come jordan and all the other great scorers didn't shoot more of them? If a great scorer from the wing shoots 22 times a game, out of that 22, he migh shoot 3 a game. Go look at lebron,kobe,wade, who are the best most explosive wings in the game and see how many 24 ft shots they take. That shot is always open especially to 1 dimensional guys who are no threats to put the ball down on the floor. Teams figure they can recover and contest as opposed to giving up a shot from 15 ft. Look at a team like utah who is always one of the top fg% teams and you'll find they take the lowest amount of 3's. Granted they haven't won title, but the are always offensively efficient because they aren't lauching 22 3's a game. Again, call me cavemanish.
Couldn't be happier about the Battier/Gay trade. Kwame and leebigez are known Battier haters, so take their posts regarding him with a grain of salt.
There's nothing "new age" about defending the 3-point line, defensive rebounding, and not putting guys on the free throw line -- things the Rockets are very good at. And the open 3-pointer is one of the most efficient shots in basketball. Look at all the best offensive teams year in and year out, and they make very good use of it. The Rockets led the league in 3-pointers made and attempted in their championship years. Teams that underrate the importance of the 3-pointer, both on offense and defense, do so at their own peril. I respect your views also, and I can appreciate that you're speaking from your own basketball experience, but clearly we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. That's alright. I still enjoy reading your posts. It's something I'll look for more when I watch the games. But step back and think about this for a second. If Battier is making the mistake frequently, and its hurting the team, don't you think the coaches would tell him that? You say it's an obvious play -- basketball 101 -- that he keeps screwing up on. Let's suppose that's accurate. Do you think the coaches are (1) too meek to call Battier out on it, or (2) not intelligent enough to recognize it? One thing no one should dispute about Battier is if he's told to do something, he'll do it. He may not be the most athletic or the most "skilled", but he's disciplined and he'll do what he's told. So, if what you're saying is true, please explain why that hasn't been corrected.
I agree about defending without fouling and defensive rebounding. Team defense is played inside out and the goal is to force a long contested shot and get the rebound. Protect the paint, scramble to close on the shooters, and rebound the ball. If you don't do these things, you're not a good defensive team. Its always respectful when I disagree with you durvasa and that's always a good thing. No name calling, no cussing, just disagreement.
