I think Kwame might want to follow the Blazers instead so he can buy an Outlaw jersey and wear it proudly.
Yeah, he really stepped up when he scored 22 in game 1 and avg 7ppg for the rest of the playoffs last yr. Everyone is a role player, its just people have different roles. I guess its asking too much for the guy to fill in the blanks when the team needs something. See this is where the whole tangible vs intangibles always become clear. I've noticed he's bee playing better lately and I didn't need some 82 game stat to tell me that. All you have to do is watch the game and see. When the playoffs come around, is he going to continue his aggression like he has lately or is he going to go back into his shell and pass the burden on too brooks,wafer, and scolandry? If he's such a high iq and hard worker, why hasn't he improved any part of his offensive game ? I mean this is about playoff success and we know how teams are going to play the rockets. He knows where shots will come from, what lanes will be open , and the angles in which some passes will be availible , but instead of concentrating in the summer to get better, I dnt know what the hell he does. I understand basketball from many different angles and aspects and it doesn't require a complex formula to determine a players worth. I doubt rudy t had a formula when he scouted and gave the nod to get ariza. I doubt also there were formulas when pritchard traded aldridge for thomas, moved up and got roy and had his owner buying picks like they were going out of style. Battier is a role player which we can all agree on, but on a level of 1-5 with 5 being the best, he's a 2.
By watching the games. I think most rational people would agree that Battier is a very poor offensive player. He was never a glue guy like his supporters claim, but I've always said that he's a good team defender. Remember that correlation is not causation. Weren't the Rockets a good defensive team before Battier got here? Has he really improved things that much to justify the high price Houston paid in getting him? I work with statistics and numbers. I do quantative analysis using SPSS and STATA. Whether it's z-scores, anova tests, pearson's tests, confidence intervals, regression analysis etc.., I just don't think it should be the primary way you analyze a basketball player's abilities. People don't realize how much of this stuff is hit or miss and how much of this stuff is driven by theory. I don't know how much time and resources the Rockets are investing in quantitatively analyzing Battier (apparently you do), but it hasn't led to much post-season success especially considering that Houston justified the trade for Battier by saying they were in win now mode and felt he would push them over the hump, but all he's done is his usual disappearing act in the playoffs. I don't need a complex set of heteroskedastic data or a scatterplot graph using ordinal or nominal levels of measurement to show me that Battier has consistently been a no show in the post-season. What is the dependent variable and independent variables used by the Rockets in analyzing Battier's contributions? Were independent variables like his lack of athleticism, lack of ball handling skills, lack of overall offensive skills, and/or his disappearing acts in the playoffs used in the data set? I'd really like to take a look at that model. Maybe you can enlighten us. I've never claimed that I had a greater understanding over anyone. I just don't think Battier produces enough to justify all the praise he gets on a constant basis especially considering the high price the Rockets paid to get him. Don't dodge the question. I want you and others like you to answer it. I think this is probably one of the best ways of analyzing Battier's value. What can he get you on the open market? If a team was in the same position as the Rockets a few years ago, would they trade a lottery pick for Battier like Houston did? What would a playoff team giveup for Battier? Remember that most Battier type players like Posey and Bowen are acquired through free agency or small deals here and there.
Kwame, we know people will come up with something. To me, the wing spot is supposed to be the best or one of the best all around players on the team. He's supposed to be able to triple threat on offense and be a pretty good defender. Most everyone thinks its all about gay and like I've stated a few times, it couldve been Brewer. Or it couldve been gay with another vet ahead until he was ready. Doesn't that sound familiar? What they did this summer to get Artest for the 25th pick is the same way they couldve gotten a vet wing for gay. I guess we'll have to see in the playoffs about the importance of shane.
I'd like for both Leebigez and Kwame to take the latest game vid and breakdown Battier's every movement on the court since they are so enthralled with Battier. Excel chart on his activities will be fine.
I understand and I agree, but it's just disappointing and frustrating that the Rockets paid such a high price for Battier and the returns have been low. Like you and others have said before, the Celtics got Ray Allen for a lottery pick and we got Artest for a late 1st rounder. There's no formula or data set out there that can justify trading a lottery pick for Battier. People just won't admit that the Rockets severly overpaid for a type of role player that is usually acquired through free agency or a minor deal. This team could've done so much more and been in a much better position had it truly capitalized on that lottery pick.
Please tell us how Thabo Sefalosha would have made this team better. You haven't responded to the charting of Battier's activities in the last game. Please give us his negative impact on the game by charting his activities. That's for Leebigez also.
You're a good poster when you're not directing your comments at the messenger as opposed to the message. You're misreading my comment. The Rockets could've gotten more out of that lottery pick. Again, Ray Allen was acquired by the Celtics for a lottery pick and Artest for a late 1st rounder. Houston could've at least made Memphis include their 1st rd draft pick in the deal as well. There is no way that the best you can get for a lottery pick is Shane Battier.
You misread or not followed the Rockets that draft. They were going to draft Thabo, not Gay. And what impact could that other draft pick made? Can you actually say that the other draft pick would have made us better? (it was the 24th)
I apologize for the double post , but I didn't see the rest of v3.0's comments for some reason when originally responding to his question. Honestly, I don't have the time to do that, but I will be watching the game intently as always. Maybe you can do it for us since it seems to be something you're so enthusiastic about. If you go look in one of the other Battier threads (I know, there are a few), I actually gave him credit for playing better recently. Although it should be noted, that he has been playin pretty poorly for most of this season so he really had no place to go but up. Let's just hope for the sake of this team and its fans he doesn't pull a Houdini in the playoffs again.
This time I really apologize for the double post, but this comment came as I was posting the other. I'm going to bed, but again, the point I'm making is that there is no way that the best you can get for a lottery pick is Shane Battier. The other stuff that you mentioned further proves my point that the Rockets botched the draft and the draft pick. If you look at the examples I mentioned earlier (Ray Allen to the Celtics and Artest to the Rockets), Houston could've got a lot more for the lottery pick than they actually did - especially considering that Battier type players are usually acquired through free agency or a minor deal.
I'm not the one making endless Battier posts. So to back up your words, I wanted you to chart Battier's actual activities on the court in an Excel chart. Sorta like put your money where your mouth is. And again, this also stands for Leebigez, unless both of you like popping into Battier threads and just regurgitate the same stuff over and over again. I guess mentioning Battier was playing poorly earlier in the season was maybe in part that he was coming back from surgery won't gain empathy from you. So should I make a thread on the Kwame and Leebigez Battier Activity Chart? I'll bump it every game so you guys can add the latest chart contributions from each game.
Run away, I mean go to bed then. But are you criticizing Battier or CD/Daryl Morey now? I'm confused.
V.3, u mean like when I called out all the people crying about Yao's shots? Its really not that hard to do and to see positive motions. You can talk and like I've always said, when morey called west, he wouldn't let him off the phone. He was probably shocked,surprised, and dismayed that someone would give up the #8 for shane. No matter how you squeeze, cut, and flip, win now and giving up that pick made the morey do the artest deal. It was flawed thinking then,now, and in the future. Its not as bad as when Vancuver thought they were a playoff team and gave Detroit a pick for otis thorpe. Yeah, we know Dumars blew it, but to think thorpe turned into the #2 pick in 03 is crazy.
Actually I remember CCR having to do the actual chart, not you. So he gets the credit. So are you going to actually do it this time? R2K actually has game vids that you can download and start the charting of Battier's activities. Maybe you and Kwame can take turns for each game. And I pose the same question to you, how would Thabo Sefalosha make us a a better team? I do not want YOUR personal ideas of who the Rockets should have taken, since it's already on print who the Rockets would have taken. Edit: Any GM would have loved to get Artest the way we got him. Trade away a washed up PG for player like Artest? No brainer. (I'm not missing Donte Green either.) How were we forced into that deal? If anything, Yao and Tmac's fragility made Morey add another accomplished player like Artest.
Yep. You nailed it once again. The "number crunching" and the "nice guy love from former coaches" will always provide the teflon. I've seen Battier unable to score posting up Kyle Lowry earlier this season. I see him routinely get beat off the dribble defending moderately quick players. His "back up plan" being the "smarts" to guide them to Yao. (It usually turns into a foul because of the way Yao is officiated). I watch Battier fizzle transition O with his pet move of running to the short corner. But there is ALWAYS another set of numbers telling us how valuable Battier is. It's mind-boggling because the numbers just don't match what I'm seeing with my own eyes. So I continue to watch closely to maintain sanity during the all too frequent threads/posts to the contrary. The Spurs picked up their fifth best starter and specialist (Bowen) for $3m of an MLE. They're replacing Bowen with Udoka and Bonner each costing less than Bowen. To go to the Lottery and come home with a pot of glue is absurd and I don't care how much number crunching is performed.
So you're trying to tell us Thabo was the only option? And even that is pretty short-sighted given the fact the Rockets weren't going to trade down without other compensation. More than likely a vet that was on the Bulls roster. How about Ronnie Brewer? I guess the number crunching doesn't support him as a good player? It was absolutely insane to go to the Lottery because of Grady's health and totally annoint Grady as healthy from here on out. Battier's entire value is predicated on being a role for BOTH Yao and Grady. I don't know what "path" they should have taken. But I know which was the wrong path. And I know Gay and Swift expiring would have been worth more than Batter at the trade deadline this year. And BTW...I DO watch the games. And if I weren't working 10-12 hours a day, I WOULD chart Battier inadequacies and post them.
I wonder if my grandkids will be reading posts about the Gay/Battier trade? It wasn't a bad trade. You could always say "they could have done better", it will never be an argument and will always be an opinion. Draft hindsight is not an argument either. I liked Brewer at the time too.
