No. There have been too many clues. The real plot twist that noone expected was Robs untimely death NOW thats good. In typical fantasy cliche Rob would be the hero. Or at least live until the final battle where he is sacrificed for the greater good and his little brother Jon is left to finish the job and everyone cries for him etc etc. Of course fantasy even with cliches if executed well can be wonderful. Example wheel of time. But in my opinion that Im sure everyone will hate me for, Martin is not a good writer. He makes excellent characters and multidimensional stories but purely as a writer he is tiring and tends to drag on. i really enjoy his books dont get me wrong and I have read MUCH worse writers than him. I like him but he has his flaws.
I've been in tinfoil mode with Game of Thrones lately but haven't read the books. I started with the conviction that Martin would like to subvert any obvious plot. To conclude the various threads satisfactorily, I believe that: The White Walkers have legitimate motives and are not merely usurping zombies. I think they built the wall and have some connection to the tree cult. Why did they attack as soon as the Night's Watch appeared? Because they have no problem with the Wildlings but some ancient territorial pact with the Watch. I also think that after Jon Snow is killed (spoiled for me) he will become the leader of the White Walkers and eventually battle Daenarys (ice and fire). Also... Sam will figure out how to destroy them but become conflicted over re-killing his best bud. The High Sparrow is merely using his position to persecute the Lannisters. Googling to verify my speculation, I read a theory on Reddit that he is Howland Reed which makes total sense to me. It would make sense if he is using devout followers to put the Starks back in power, defeating the obvious and boring narrative. Sansa will kill Littlefinger to assert herself finally and to get revenge for him screwing her over consistently. Littlefinger will not be along for long, regardless of who kills him. He's not sympathetic enough (contrary to the general GOT narrative). Anyone with more knowledge care to enlighten me?
Since you're in the book thread, it's pretty well established in the books that the wall was built by men. Namely Brandon the Builder, who was a Stark and is Bran's namesake. He also built Winterfell. Who do you think the Wights are? They're mostly undead wildlings. There aren't enough crows north of the wall for the White Walkers to build their army from them. They have to be wildlings. And why do you think the Wildlings came south to the wall? To get away from the White Walkers. The commonly accepted view is that Jon isn't dead, or that if he is, Melisandre will revive him with the power of the Lord of Light (in the books, she stays at the wall instead of going with Stannis. Mance Rayder is also still alive because she used her magic to basically switch his body with another character). Some also believe that a revived Jon would be a reborn Azor Ahai, a legendary hero and champion of the Lord of Light who wielded a burning sword. In the early seasons of the show (and book) Melisandre thought Stannis was the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, but one theory suggests that it's actually Jon. I don't think that's his goal. I just think it's an example of Cersei's scheming backfiring on her. One theme in the book is that she's really not as smart as she thinks she is and she's blind to many things. Can't say. The show is past the books in regards to her and Littlefinger. The storyline she's in now is actually that of a different character in the books.
I haven't read the books but don't think it's established in the books that men built the wall. Brandon the Builder is mentioned as a legend. I believe one of the major themes of the series is that the legends are ironically true as with Jon Snow and the Azor narrative. I think that Bran being named after the legend is significant because he will be involved in demolishing the wall. The Wildling/Wights business is not clear in the show, and you seem to suggest it's obvious where they came from. I believe you in regards to the book but it seemed like skeletons could be centuries old so I wasn't sure. The most interesting part of my vague theory to me, that the White Walkers are not inherently evil, was not addressed. I think the best way to incorporate them is to have them kill or sacrifice a character so that we can have an insider explain their motivations. We need a fire vs ice narrative besides all humans fighting ice demons. That's why I doubt that Melisandre will revive him. I think the High Sparrow will have an ulterior motive, although the plot also shows Cersei's incompetence. I agree that she's not smart but there must be a plan in place. They're going to strip the Lannisters of authority and probably crown a Stark (Sansa) as ruler. I'm not that invested in these theories I just think the show would be more interesting with ambiguous moral battles and this season has been pushing absurdly evil characters. If the villains were not more complex (not counting Ramsay) the show would have almost no appeal to me.
The wall was built by Bran the Builder but was much smaller than it is currently. The Night's Watch built it up to 700ft high and placed tunnels and castles along the span.
Bravos. You took a quote where I admitted that I hadn't read the book. Care to offer a meaningful rebuttal to my point that the wall being built by men is a legend? Yes I admitted multiple times that I have not read the books and would throw out tinfoil conspiracies, asking for opinions. I know the legend of Bran the Builder, but it's merely a legend that spans back thousands of years. I'm highly skeptical of legends and prophecies in GOT. If men did build the wall it is possible they did so under an agreement with the Others that has been breached. I think there needs to be something more to the them than unintelligible evil.
Samwell in A Feast for Crows: "The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it." The Brandon the Builder stories are 7,000 year old hearsay. 'When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from GRRM answered, “ “Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.” It would make sense that a magical gigantic ice wall was created by the creatures whose primary magical power is creating ice.
Its been well established men built the wall. They have always continued to add to the wall, but since the Nights Watch is just a fraction of what it used to be, they can barely garrison them, much less add to the wall. Its also been noted that the wall was built to keep the wildlings out. The White Walkers were just a myth, and up until now, nobody has seen one for centuries. Wights are the walking dead, not zombies or skeletons. The TV show has done a poor job to portray this, going instead with run of the mill boring zombie look. If a body has no tissue to keep the bones together, then they can't attack.
This should clear up anything about the wall: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall If your theory is correct, the question is why would the white walkers build the wall?
Just the fact that you replied with that to someone who has read the books, it defies logic. I can't offer a grounded rebuttal, as I haven't read the books either, but I've been told that the Children of the Forest brought some kind of magic to build the wall. I'd like to know where your theory comes from, why would The Others contribute to build a wall that is designed to keep them away?
Jon isn't dead. Martin is nevre going to kill his golden boy, especially in such a manner. The cliffhanger aspect does everything to confirm that.
I understand the traditional explanation of the wall. My theory was supposed to be a contrarian theory. It's not the most absurd conspiracy, judging by other crackpots who buy it. I can't offer a great explanation for why the Others built the wall... I just think it's a much more reasonable explanation than men building it considering their magic ice powers. It's possible that the Others built the wall to keep men out and the wall was later appropriated with magic to keep them from traveling south. Maybe they didn't want to travel south of the wall due to wars. Another possibility is that Brandon the Builder later became the Night's King or was working with the Others to establish a treaty. I'm convinced Jon Snow will join them eventually and it would be convenient if their origin is Stark related. One thing is certain: the Wall is coming down. The question is who will be the one to destroy it? I expect Samwell to do it intentionally. My response wasn't rude. You're acting like challenging the legend from the book was insolent. "No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time." - George R. R.Martin
The others are not inherently evil. I think the author has said s much himself. They have their own motives that we have no insight on yet. I believe the wall was built by the first men with the help of the forest children. The wildlings were just men who got left by mistake n wrong side. There is nothing to suggest that the others build the wall themselves. But on the other hand it may be true. Its not such a far fetched theory since we know very little from that time period and about the others. I believe in the next book we will be able to answer many more questions. So just wait 1-2 more years lol.
Go read about the old gods and the forest children .... Mankind is said to have come across the land bridge connecting essos to for Dorne. The men slaughtered the forest children, so they used dark magics to use the oceans to close the land bridge. Then a war for hundreds of years went on. Why would the children want to help mankind? They likely built the wall to keep men out after the war. I'm certain it agreed that both sides stay on their side... Then the free men moved past this spot and perhaps the white walkers were made to defend the forest children who mankind committed genocide against. The story is looking this way. Further more this was a war of cold and hot. Fire and ice magics. Stark blood has ice magic and targaryns have fire magic in them. Jon Snow has both perhaps. He definitely has the blood of the Starks and their consequent magical properties. It is also said the children may have sent the fire wolves to the children of the Starks .... And a special one for Jon... Some direwolves are not supposed to be south of the wall and seem to possess magical qualities above normal wolves.
I think its pretty obvious that the Others didn't build the Wall. Don't confuse the Others with the Children of the Forrest. The Others ARE the White Walkers. In A Storm of Swords, Sam Tarly and Gilly run into Bran and the Reeds inside one of the abandoned Castles along the wall. They tell Bran that Cold Hands is waiting for them on the other side of the Wall to take them to the 3 eyed crow. When Sam is asked why Cold Hands is not with him, Sam tells them that there is magic within the Walls preventing him from entering. Since Cold Hands is a Wight and a creation of the Others, it stands to reason that the Others did not create the Wall. Why would you create a Wall that your army could not pass through? Further evidence exists in the same chapter of the book when Sam enters the Nightfort through a gate that is actually a Weirwood which will only let Sam pass after he repeats his Nights Watch Vows to the Weirwood. The Weirwoods belong to the 3 Eyed Crow and the Children and not the White Walkers. So for book readers I think its pretty obvious that the Wall was most definitely not built by the Others aka The White Walkers. There is hard core substantiated evidence in the Books that the Children and the 3 Eyed Crow either built or assisted the Nights Watch in the construction of the Wall. Just as a side note, the Maesters have been shown to be wrong about the history's of the lands many times. Old Nan seemed to know more about the true history of the lands than even the most respected of the Maesters. She was crazy old and all of her stories have proven to be dead on.
The First Men and The Children created a peace pact and the decedents of the First Men worship the Weirwoods. The Starks are decedents of the First Men and the 3 Eyed Crow has been selected from the First Men or decedents of the First Men or the Andals. The Children saw most of their numbers diminish because of the invasion of the Others. The Others were defeated by the combined forces of the First Men and the Children. It was because of that invasion that the Wall was built by the Children and the First Men (some of whom became The Nights Watch). The Children select the 3 Eyed Crow from First Men or the Andals and the decedents of the First Men or the Andals. The Children lost most of their population due to the Others. The Children certainly had a hand in building the Wall and the Nights Watch guards the Wall. The Wall is infused with magic that defends it from Others & Wights. There is no doubt that the Wall was created specifically to keep the Others out.
Where are you getting this? All of mine is supported with text from the book. You sound like someone making things up... Do you think the children would create the forest and then live on the wrong side of it? Also they were slaughtered. Please tell me where the books mention peace between the children and man? I am wanting to read these passages.
