Boki and Eddie. Should only athletic freaks come into the NBA without a total game.

http://www.kernel.uky.edu/1995/fall/1130/s3.html

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- Early in last night's game against Oklahoma State, Tim Duncan received a pass in the paint. Double-teamed, the Wake Forest center passed, much to the chagrin of his coach, Dave Odom.

"Timmy!" screamed Odom, a mild-mannered, bespectacled man who resembles your high school science teacher.

"Shoot the freakin' ball!" You can't blame Odom for that request. After all, the fate of his team lies squarely on the shoulders of Duncan, the nation's best big man not named Marcus Camby.

Duncan could have shot more last night, but he could hardly have done anything else more impressive. His 22 points, 16 rebounds, six assists, and three blocks helped steer the No. 11 Demon Deacons past Oklahoma State 69-53 in the DirecTV Great Eight.

In doing so, Wake Forest exacted some revenge for last season's loss to the Cowboys in the East Regional semifinals. Of course that was back when the Deacons had Randolph Childress and the Cowboys had Bryant "Big Country" Reeves.

This time, with no Big Country to check him, the man from the little island dominated the inside territory.

Duncan, a 6-foot-10 junior from the U.S. province of St. Croix in the Virgin Islands, had half as many rebounds as the entire Oklahoma State team and scored almost at will in the second half. Erstwhile Cowboys coach Eddie Sutton was forced to counter Duncan with a frontline standing 6-foot-8, 6-foot-7 and 6-foot-6.

Note: Bad move.

"They're the same physical team," Duncan said of Oklahoma State. "Having a 7-foot-1 man behind you is a little bit different though." Duncan played all but the last 40 seconds but took just 14 shots.

"I tried to let the game come to me," he said.

But with 10 minutes left to play, he took his game to the Cowboys. Wake's lead had been cut to eight, but after two Duncan dunks, a layup and several offensive rebounds, the Deacons stretched the margin to 14 and cruised to the finish line.

All this from a man who wanted to be an Olympic swimmer like his sister and didn't start playing basketball until he was in ninth grade. Now, still just 19 years old, he's projected as the No. 1 draft pick in the NBA whenever he decides to go pro. Scouts say he would have been drafted first last year too.

No wonder Odom wants him thinking shot before pass.

"I don't want him looking to be a playmaker," Odom said later. "I want him looking to score. He needs to understand that we have to have his presence in the middle."

Duncan is not as good a passer or shooter as Massachussetts' Camby, who burned UK for 32 points here Tuesday night, but he's more of a post player than the Minuteman. That should make for a good matchup when Wake and UMass square off next week.

To get the Deacons ready, Odom wants his team to develop around Duncan, while also not forgetting to get him the ball.

"I don't want our team thinking 'Tim Duncan, Tim Duncan, Tim Duncan' every time we come down the court," Odom said. For now, that job will be reserved for everybody else in the country.

 

http://ogb.wfu.edu/back_issues/1995_Fall/11-16-95/Sports/acc.Duncan.html

Duncan enters the 1995-96 season as everyone's player of the year, this after capturing third-team All-American honors by the Associated Press and National Defensive Player of the Year honors by the National Association of Basketball Coaches in 1995 . He added to these honors by being named to the first-team All-ACC, first-team All-ACC Tournament and USBWA All-District teams.

Considering all of this talent, it is no wonder the Associated Press selected the Deacons as the No. 8 team in their preseason poll. On a team loaded with freshmen and sophomores, the weight of these expectations fall squarely on his wide shoulders.

However, Duncan is not intimidated by these picks, as he realizes that there is still a season full of games left to play.

"It doesn't matter what they rank you during the preseason, it's where they rank you at the end of the year," Duncan said.

While this may be an easy response to an old question, it is certainly an accurate one. With the most difficult schedule the Deacons have faced during the Dave Odom era coming this season, it appears that the team is getting ready to showcase Duncan for the nation.

"It's games like this that will help us a whole lot," he said. "We know we have to get ready and get our team together, up to what we would usually be to start at an ACC level of play.

"Mostly it's players I've played against at one point or another, so that will help me adjust a whole lot."

Mostly, though, it will be others having to adjust to Duncan. As the school's all-time leading shot-blocker, Duncan can make life very hard on opposing teams. Taking the ball right at him is a turnover waiting to happen, because he not only has the ability to block the initial shot but to stay with it and get the rebound as well.

With an average of 12.5 boards last season, he posted the highest mark in the ACC since 1974 and also came in fifth nationally. His 4.2 blocks per game also led the league, and this figure placed him sixth in the NCAA.

These are dazzling numbers for someone who is still just a teenager, but his experience both nationally and internationally (Duncan competed in the World University Games this summer and Goodwill Games in 1994) has made him a valuable commodity to scouts from the NBA.

 

glynch are you calling boki and athletic freak? i didn't even know he was that athletic.

 

Now, how many guys are predicted to go #1 every year? More than one, right? Scouts always say that to try to get a guy to go early...the more the merrier. Had Eddie Griffin stayed a year, they would have said the same about him the following year.

I am sure you can find more people looking to get as many of those sophmores in the draft as possible, but all that is speculation. Smith was the better ballhandler and scorer at the time...and Duncan had huge potential like McDyess, and was building steam....but not the way you described it in the tourney....by saying 'FANTASTIC 1995 TOURNEY" when WFU got upset by Bryant Reeves...sheesh.

let's tally it up..

I showed you that Randolph Childress was the surprise of the ACC Tourney; Duncan didn't have the rebounds you said he did in the 95 tourney; you forgot Joe Smith was College Player of the Year; I reminded you that Bryant Reeves had a good game to beat WFU; Wake Forest did get upset when you thought OSU was favored; your link does show he was still only 6'10 as a sophmore (no taller than Joe Smith); and I had a bad link to an Annual Award showing Duncan left off the 3rd Team. You proved he was on 3rd Team with Bryant Reeves (still behind Rasheed, though).

Anyhow, we are in disagreement, and you're previous questionable statements are not doing a very good job of pursuading me.

after reading your comments, I am wrong about Joe Smith being the only lock and should reconsider whether it was due to Duncan's absense. But I just don't remember Duncan ruling the tourny more than Childress...rather I remember Childress was on fire ande Duncan was viewed as a great find who was passing Rasheed...imo, Duncan vs Smith would have come down to workouts...and not a lock either way.

 

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/boxlines/WFU/1995

Here's the boxscore to every WFU game in the 1994-1995 season.

Let point out of few things.

One, Bryant Reeves had a SUBPAR game against Timmy D that year. 15 pts and 9 rebounds on 4 of 15 shooting. Now we have the facts. Tim Duncan had 12 pts, 22 REBOUNDS and 8 blocks. I misspoken when I said he had 25 rebounds against St. Louis the week before. He had 25 points and 9 rebounds. This following his 21 points and 12 rebounds in game one of the NCAA Tournament. He shot 23 of 35 for the tournament, which equates to a .657 FG%. 19.33 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 5.44 bpg.

Now That is a FANTASTIC 1995 NCAA Tournament performance, just like I originally said.

Also, in the one article about Randolph Childress stating about how his supporting cast didn't step up in the 1995 ACC Tourney, the facts say otherwise. Duncan averaged 17 ppg, 14 rpg, and 4.66 bpg for the Tournament. He also held Rasheed Wallace to 9 pts and 7 rebs in the championship game.

Also, in the February 28, 1995 matchup right before the Tourney, he dominated Rasheed once again, scoring 25 pts and 12 rebs, while limiting Rasheed to 4 pts, 7 rebs, on 0 of 3 shooting. He also played 31 minutes that game.

Also, the fact that Rasheed made 2nd team All-America that year with 16.6 pg, 8.8 rpg, and 2.9 bpg, while Duncan was relegated to 3rd team with 16 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and 4.2 bpg, is a complete joke. Media obviously favored a UNC player in this situation. Rasheed could score in a multitude of ways as oppose to Duncan's post game, and that fact alone impressed the voters.

I also never said OSU was the favored team in the matchup with the WFU. All I said was that OSU was a good team that year. There is nothing to be embarassed about in losing to a Final Four team. Like I said, Kansas in 1997 with a, what was it, 32 and 1 record, lost to Arizona in the sweet 16. They had Jacque Vaughn, Paul Pierce, Scott Pollard, and Raef Lafrentz on that team. Arizona was not ranked in the top 10 in the final AP poll that year. Arizona went on to win the National Championship. I don't think KU should be embarassed about losing to the National champions even though they were overwhelming favorites. WFU was not even close to be as heavily favored to OSU.

My final point is that Tim Duncan was 3rd team All-American and the Nation's Defensive player of the year his sophomore season. Yet he manage to raise his level of play his last 3 weeks. Antonio McDyess played out of this world for 2 games in the NCAA Tournament, and that propelled him to the 2nd overall selection in the 1995 NBA Draft. Tim Duncan played out of this world for 3 NCAA Tournament games and the 5 games preceding that. In my opinion, he was a lock for the number 1 pick over Joe Smith that year.

 

Can we get back on topic... This isnt about Tim Duncan... Why dont yall go to NBA DISH and name a thread TD and yall discuss all this crap there if yall like..

 

Da Man,

You seem to be getting mad, and pretty biased about the stats too. Did you even bother to look at Joe Smith's stats from that page?

The article never said the "supporting cast" didn't show up. It said, rightfully so, that Childress had one of the best ACC Tourney's ever, which is true....dude averaged 36ppg. Duncan had a star PG with him; Smith didn't have as much.

You call that FANTASTIC 1995 NCAA Tourny from a #1 seed, against a #16 seed and #9....well, Joe Smith's last two games were better than Duncan's, imo...and against better competition.

22-14 vs UConn
31-21-7 blocks vs Texas
9-4 vs Gonzaga on a blowout with only 24min

that was 3 games on 56%, and

before that
24-10 vs UNC
15-16 vs FSU
25-10 vs Virg
40-18 vs Duke
33-10 vs Clemson

Joe Smith was a sophmore, too. He was unstoppable offensively and Duncan was producing the superior defense at that time.

But hey, I called it a lock from Joe Smith's side, and I was wrong for that. Duncan's last 5 games were starting to make waves. I just remembered Childress more, and watched Smith more.

Fair enough. You want to call it a lock for Duncan. Go ahead; it's pretty easy to do so after his Rookie Year.

btw: thanks for that link...that's awesome!!

 

dude, the thread starter mentioned Tim Duncan in the opening thread. He mentioned Stoudamire and Garnett. This is a borderline NBA Dish thread, as he wrote it.

 

OHHHHHH STUPID ME... sometimes i just go to all the bottom comments.. sorry about that... Carry on...

 

Heypartner,

Not getting mad at all. I'm just kind of enjoy getting in a sensible debate like back in the old days of the BBS. It's definately been a while.

I can't discount Joe Smith's numbers. I remembered when I did a scouting report on him back then. I called him a Dennis Rodman with great offensive potential. The guy was such a gifted rebounder in college. He'd get off 2 or 3 jumps before people reacted. When you lead the ACC in offensive rebounding (even ahead of Duncan), you've got skills.

Production is a big part in projecting an amateur player to a pro player. No doubt about it. But, when scouting, you've got to view production in relation to talent and skill set. Randolph Childress, Shawn Respert, and even Kurt Thomas (who led the nation in both rebounding and scoring that year) have great production. But some of the talent and skill set that made them so great in college doesn't transfer as well to the pros.

Joe Smith was a more productive player than Tim Duncan at that point. But at the time, I feel confident in saying that not only myself, but a lot of NBA personnel guys felt Duncan's game in 1995 was going to translate a lot better than Joe Smith. Joe Smith was a tweener with great production. Not much different than Antwan Jamison. Duncan was always pigeoned into one of the post positions. He had a definitive position, whereas Joe Smith didn't. That's why I feel so adamant that Duncan would have been picked over Joe Smith that year.

Anyways, at this point, there isn't much more ground that we can cover on this topic. But, I thoroughly enjoyed debating about it.

I never thought I'd find that link every ACC boxscore. Now I wish I can find a link for a boxscore to every game in every sport.

 

I'm glad you enjoy the back n forth, too, and scouting as much as I do. Hope you don't mind me continuing.

I had you wrongly pegged for someone rewriting history. I find scouting predictions often change perspective once the player succeeds or fails in the NBA. When they reach full potential or exceed it, it's often "told you so; I just knew it." When they fail, there are always reasons--which are often true--but some are bogus. What we don't do as much is give most of the credit or discredit to the work or lack of work the player put in to improving or the intangibles like confidence/heart or lack thereof, as if reaching full potential is based more on factors controllable by coaches...or we were just lied to about a player's height...etc.

You often hear stuff like, so and so NBA coach is hindering the development of guys like Eddie Griffin. Or Langhi would flourish in a different offense. Or Fizer needs the ball to be a star like he was in college. Bogus talk, based on excuses for being wrong.

I had nothing that I could call a scouting report on Duncan at that time. I didn't watch him enough. I thought the ACC was overrated that year, based on few vets. Like you, I didn't think Childress was going to translate, either, but I do always measure college teams by who has the best guards, and I didn't think Joe Smith had much help...getting triple teamed quite often.

When viewing how a big man will translate to the NBA, I don't look at size as much as I look at how he fares against double and triple teams. I find that size/athleticism alone doesn't say much...the big man needs to be able to make fast moves (good footwork) and get his shot off under pressure....and dribbling is a big bonus.

Smith's offensive game really impressed me, like Gasol's. He was way beyond Eddie Griffin, for instance. At 20yrs old, I wasn't calling him a tweener (anymore than people called Pervis Ellison or Griffin a tweener) as I assumed he'd be a PF, just fine, bulking up as needed.

I think into his 2nd yr in the NBA he was producing a PF game about like Gasol--Gasol having the edge based on being taller. Gasol still needs to bulk up or develop longer range. Will he, or will he level out and be an 18/9 guy like Smith was?

Alas, he ended up not bulking up and becoming injury prone...so now, despite his good 1st two yrs that arguably rivaled those of Wallace/McDyess, he's the "biggest bust of all time" because Wallace, McDyess and Garnett were on the board...despite no one suggesting picking them #1.

After starting well, imo, Smith just seemed like one of those guys with great potential who didn't fully realize it out of not being one of the hungry competitors....borne out in not bulking up and becoming injury prone.

Let's hope Griffin doesn't follow that path, as he appears to be doing.

In contrast, it's easy to look back at Duncan now and say how predictable it was after his strong 5 game finish to 1995 that he'd grow 2 more inches and develop an MVP offensive game. I had you pegged for doing just that (rewriting history), and proclaiming it was a given...in hindsight.

I apologize for stereotyping you that way, and you definitely had a stonger memory of it than I expected, hence why you were so adamant to find backing evidence. You're right, despite me remaing adamant that he did not have the offensive game of Joe Smith at that time, he defense and rebounding and quick rising potential was enough to say he was the #1.

Da Man,

I know you saw something in Duncan in that ACC tourney, and you have jarred my memory enough to remember people saying how surprised they were how much he shut down Rasheed Wallace....but tell me again about your scouting of Smith? You had him pegged as a tweener with potential below that of Rasheed, Stackhouse and McDyess?

For me, it was just as difficult to predict Duncan soaring like he did at age 19 as it was to predict Smith's eventual downfall as a 6'10 tweener. Had I watched Duncan closer, I would like to think that I would have learned to like him more than Smith based on the noticeably superior defense (which I prefer in big men)...but i didn't until 1996.

so, kudos to your 1995 scouting report of Duncan. You were right.

 

Heypartner,

Actually, I knew Duncan was going to be a good pro. Definitely All-Star caliber. But I never imagined he would be as good as he has become. That fact that he grew two inches before the 1997-1998 NBA season helped him tremendously. My lasting memory of Duncan was struggling against the so-called "Big Continent", the center from St. Mary's, I think. The Big C was 7'2" 330 lbs. Duncan had a real supbar game against him in the 1997 NCAA tournament. Duncan had problems with bigger, stronger guys in college. Growing those two inches and developing a deadly face up game has taken him to a level I never imagined.

I thought Joe Smith was going to be a better NBA player than McDyess and Wallace. With Garnett, who could tell? No one saw him play except die hard scouts. The only thing I remember about Garnett is that February of that year, I was hearing about this kid who averaged a triple double a game and only a few blocks shy of a quadruple double. People in the know were saying that he was the best high school player since Moses Malone. When I heard those words. I was hoping the Rockets would pick him up in the middle of the 1st round, so Hakeem could mentor him to be his replacement.

I don't know what happened to Joe Smith. He had such a promising first two years in the league. Unfortunately, I think he got worse as a player, especially when his confidence started dwindling.

When I saw Antwan Jamison in college, he really conjured up a lot of memories of Joe Smith to me. When I saw him, I saw Smith reincarnated in Carolina blue. The offensive rebounding...The Whirling-dervish low post game..the mid range game. But when I saw Jamison struggle against Michael Doleac in the 1998 Final Four, I knew he couldn't play in the low post. The great thing about Jamison is that he worked on his perimeter game religiously without abandoning his effectively eccentric low post game. That and the fact that he never lost his mojo is what separated his and Joe Smith's pro careers. Never underestimate hard work and self confidence.