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Blueprint for Rockets success

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by trugoy, Jan 28, 2003.

  1. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    exhibit A: the pacers, currently holding the 2nd best record in the NBA, and one of the youngest teams in the NBA. The pacers play the passing game as well as anybody in the league, in fact if they were in the west they would be recognised alongside Sacramento as one of the best passing teams, it's just that they play teams like New york, Miami, Detroit, etc grind it out eastern conference type teams more often. Youth was no excuse for these guys, they have played up to their potential, even during their maturing years they made it into the playoffs.

    The reasons for their success are quite simple:

    1. Drafted pass first point guard in jamaal tinsley, it's no wonder that pacers are calling him the new mark jackson, the nba finals floor general for the pacers during their glory years in the 90s. The pacers PG before then, travis best and jalen rose, basically SF clones in that they are great at creating shots for themselves and other people when they feel like it, of course much less talented than SF.

    2. Traded Jalen Rose, traded away arguably their best player, for lesser role model type players, because they wanted to build around their post presence in Jermaine O'neal(sound familiar?) and not their perimeter threats. Jalen was demanding more shots and wasn't playing the team game, in fact he was sat down in the 4th quarters of games because of POOR DECISION making and bad defence(sound familiar?).

    3. Obtained Ron artest as their defensive spark plug, to instill a defensive pride amongst the team. The rockets have already done this with james posey, IMO a poor man's artest.

    4. The COACH isiah thomas has instilled a sharing team first attitude amongst the team, and has RUTHLESSLY BENCHED OR TRADED AWAY players who do not fit that mould, see jalen rose, travis best.

    The result, 33 - 12, this should be the blue print for the rockets who arguably have much more talent than the pacers.
     
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota Never Trump
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    VERY VERY VERY GOOD POST !!!

    DD
     
  3. hikanoo49

    hikanoo49 Member

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    Fantastic post!!! I didn't think of that comparison...

    The only addition I would add to the list is that they have a great core of role players. They have guys that do the dirty work and can contribute without having to score.
     
  4. DavidS

    DavidS Contributing Member

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    Yes, I've used T. Parker and B. Davis as examples of that.

    The issue is bb-IQ (or lack-thereof), not youth.
     
  5. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    You conveniently left out the fact that while re-tooling the Pacers still had a 20ppg hall of famer winning games for them.

    And another thing......Isiah would not have traded away Steve Francis like he did Jalen Rose.





    ____________________________Bottom line
     
  6. DavidS

    DavidS Contributing Member

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    Isiah would have molded Francis into a fundamentally sound Guard.

    You should see some of the instruction tapes of Isiah working out. Some of the rudiments and drills he practices are nothing short of amazing! :eek:

    Too bad there aren't any "Isiah Thomas little man's camps!"

    :)
     
  7. carayip

    carayip Member

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    I wish SF can watch some tapes of Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton or John Stockton. But for some reasons, he talked to Michael Jordon in the summer! :mad:
     
  8. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    Isiah and KJ are exactly the type of player that Steve should pattern his game after.
     
  9. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    Sure, reggie will be reggie, but there's only so much a 37 year old shooting guard can do not named jordan.

    Don't be so sure that Isiah would not trade steve francis. Jalen Rose was the FRANCHISE PLAYER in indiana and it was Jalen that actually secured isiah as the coach, Jalen wanted to move from SF to PG in Isiah's first season, and isiah obliged him, Jalen had a SF like season, excellent numbers, in fact how does 20 points 5 rebounds 6 assists sound for the season, but the result was indy 500 season, 8th place finish and first round exit. More importantly Jermaine O'neal averaged around 10 points. Next season Jalen rose moved back to SF, tinsley comes in as a ROOKIE as starting PG, Jermaine has a 20/10 season, Jalen sulks, is benched, finally is traded. This season, witness the results, oh and indiana is 10-2 without reggie miller this season.

    Mark my words, it may not happen this season, it may not happen next season but something will happen, somebody in this rockets organisation needs to get some balls and do something before YAO decides that he may need to re-sign elsewhere if SF and CM keep doing what they are doing. It would be great if those guys mature and everybody can get along, but it's not a sure thing, you can't just say well give those guys 2 years and they'll be fine, everything will be rosy, you need to work hard at it.
     
  10. silvercatt

    silvercatt Contributing Member

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    trugoy awesome post.
     
  11. Dallas Rocket

    Dallas Rocket Contributing Member

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    Trugoy,

    GREAT post and insights:)

    The key would appear to be Thomas with the will and knowhow to mold a team that reflects exactly how he played- tough, smart and unselfish with an indomitable will.

    D R
     
  12. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    Hey <b>trugoy</b>, great post!!!

    I'd be interested in your calculated personnel moves which could change the chracter of this Rockets team.

    Mull it over....
     
  13. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    Thanks, I think realistically speaking, none of the main cogs will be traded since the rockets cannot get equal value for them. Rockets will not trade Yao Ming, Steve Francis who is nearly untradeable, as no team in the league will give up the talent that Steve Francis is worth to bring him to their teams, in the end the Rockets have to try to make it work with Yao and Franchise.

    You have to look at why steve Francis is the player he is, all through his whole basketball career from grade school, right through to NBA, he has been the best player on his team, the only way he knows how to help his team is to go get the ball(look at his rebound numbers) and when he gets the ball to create victories by himself, mostly by scoring but also by creating shots for others, this results in steve absolutely dominating the ball in games. That's why he is not a great player off the ball or on the catch, but a great player off the dribble, he has never had to hone those skills.

    I think Rudy has great trust in veterans, especially veterans with championship/playoff experience, witness his devotion to glen rice, he also is not adverse to benching players for bad play, witness the steve francis - san antonio game. However the reality is when your Backup PG is moochie norris then francis is not going to be benched too much. The greatest asset Rudy has is his great relationship with his players, this comes especially useful when a coach needs to chew out a player or show some "tough love". However, you cannot make a point to a player at the expense of the team, and benching Steve Francis would be a great loss to the team, with only Moochie as your backup.

    Enter: Mark Jackson, NBA finals experience, Playoff warrior, has played with 2 great jump shooting centres in Ewing and Smits, Great passer and floor general. Houston needs to sign him in the offseason, with MJ on the bench backing up SF, Rudy would have no hesitation benching SF if he got out of hand, certainly he would take all of moochie's minutes and Yao's game would flourish under Mark Jackson. Also I am certain that in order for SF to mature he needs that sting of pride to hurt him as he is benched for poor play, which thus far happens too infrequently to register permanently with SF. Would Rudy do it? Of course he would, he just didn't have the veteran he could trust to run the show before now, once he does he would have no hesitation doing it. We all know that MJ is just a temporary stop gap, this is to the rockets advantage, SF knows that he is still the franchise player, but he would also know that he has to lift his play, and if he is to become a championship PG he will have to. He could probably learn a few things from MJ in practise as well which is an added bonus.


    The other area of concern is the PF spot, the same is true here as was in PG, you have griffin and mo taylor, griffin needs a role model badly! forget about post moves, his job as always is to provide rebounding defense and shotblocking and hustle points, delusions about his breakout as an all-star needs to be curtailed, he will never have that opportunity in Houston and his Houston all star career ended when Yao was drafted. If Griffin is a team player and accepts his role, then you sign Popeye Jones next year and he becomes the mentor/veteran backup same as MJ is to SF.

    All in all, the problem with the team is mental and not structural, shrewd signings of veterans to complement Rudy's great player relationship is the way forward.
     
  14. choujie

    choujie Member

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    Nice post.

    One more thing: Francise should watch tapes of Kevin Johnson, who was a converted point guard as well, but tried very hard to be a true leader.
     
  15. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    Addition by subtraction. Mobley,Taylor,and Griffin for SAR. Posey and Morris into the starting lineup alon with Ming,Francis and SAR. 2 legit post players,2 hustle type defensive players and still an explosive pg who doesn't have to have the ball in his hand all the time.
     
  16. AroundTheWorld

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    Yeah, especially because Rahim has been leading his teams to great successes wherever he played.
     
  17. GATER

    GATER Contributing Member

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    Good post(s). But the problem will be solved long before Yao's 3 years + 4th year team option are a factor. I don't think Les Alexander will wait longer than the summer after 2003-2004 season (Yao's second) to put the pressure on for results (if there have been none).


    leebigez -
    You've made some great points lately but I'm not with you on this one. For one, I don't think SAR is the answer (and yanking him out of his native Atlanta may not sit well with him). Secondly, IMHO (even if it works cap wise) Mobely, Taylor and EG are far too much to give up for him.

    If Francis remains the PG, a SF/Point Forward type player is what is needed.
     
    #17 GATER, Jan 28, 2003
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2003
  18. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    I have no problem with people disagreeing thats why they call this a forum. Perosnally, i think he would give us th consistent scoring in the frontcourt we have been missing. Posey and Morris makes us bigger and better defensively and also gives us 2 players who won't demand the ball. Every night teams will know they have to stop our frontcourt with SAR. Not every other night or every 3 rd night, but every night. Take those same 14 shots that Mobley gets and give them to SAR and you'll get your 18-19pts and 8-10 rebounds. I know alot of people will jump on him and talk about the losing teams he has endured since he has been in the league, but that doesn't and shouldn't take away from the player he is. Look at Brand and no one is disputing that he's a good player.

    The deal i propose may look like alot to give up, but its not as much as it seems. The Lakers gave up All Star eddie jones and a very solid player in Campbell for Glen rice and the won the title. Not to mention earlier they gave up the other all star in Nick for basically nothing also. What happened is that it improved the overrall team chemistry. Thats what I'm proposing here with SAR. The shots that Mobley gets will be replaced by SAR. The shots Taylor and Griffin gets will be replaced with Ming and and the hustle players Posey and Morriss. I think and if you look at this team, it plays well when the frontcourt plays well. When Ming plays well and either taylor or griffin decides to show up this team is good, but tats the problem. Ming is tired, but is showing signs of coming out of it, Taylor is Taylor, and Griffin still plays well in spurts. I'm saying we can replace those inconsistencies with a proven, capable inside/outside type of player who is still just 25 yrs of age.

    After further looking at the situation, look and see how much better anyone figures either one of the traded players will get. Mobley is about as good as he will get. He can get better in the decision making and shot selection, but players just don't wake up and change these bad habits. Taylor at his best will be about 15pts 5 rebs and still soft. Eddie can be about as good as Donyell Marshall which is like 15pts 8-10 rebs and a couple of blks, but the problem is he and Taylor play the same spot. Even if SAR never gets any better, which is possible, he's still 18-20 pts and 8-10 rebs per night. He's signed for about 3 more yrs so the money issue would solve itself. A move like this could help take the immediate pressure of everyone else including Rudy.
     
  19. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    the deal is good for houston... on paper, however you have to be concerned about enough shots going around, with SAR and SF on the same team, i have my doubts as to whether YAO will ever emerge as a consistent frontcourt threat. Remember that LA traded away van excel and eddie jones to let Kobe SHINE.

    I also think that if SAR is truly on the trading block, atlanta can get better value than mobley, mo taylor and griffin. It is not really a viable trade, especially since the GM there is under tremendous pressure and would not do a 1 for 3 player deal. They already have their own mo taylor in alan henderson.

    Atlanta, wants first and foremost a pass first point guard, second it wants cap space, and third it wants youth, draft picks.
     
  20. Gutter Snipe

    Gutter Snipe Contributing Member

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    I don't like SAR - he doesn't have a reputation for playing good D. If we're going to make a trade, how about Mobley, Griffin, and Rice for Brand? The Clippers get a good but inexpensive player in Mobley, an expiring contract in Rice, and a young talent in Griffin that they can milk for a few years before they have to pay him.

    Houston gets a banger with good D, blocks, offensive rebounds, etc at the 4. They would lose offensive firepower at the 2 and 3, but would gain defensively with Juaquin and Posey playing more minutes. Morris and Boki would also get more minutes. We wouldn't be able to get rid of MoT, but that's hard to do anyway.

    So yeah, the Clippers would probably do this deal - but the Rockets wouldn't. They like to send players to good situations too much, and Clipperland isn't one of the better situations in the league.
     

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