The poster has shown exactly nothing. And yes, you obviously lack a better word...a word that would accurately describe my posting instead of a false claim that is not supported by anything but your frustration with not being able to refute my points.
Well Tang, that is where these wonderful muslim peace loving folks have got us. They very much have the right to build wherever the hell they want to build. Does that make it right? Do you think that a mosque built upon the ashes of Ground Zero is a classy move by the muslim-"american" leaders. This isn't about rights and wtf is legal and I'm sick of you libtards turning it into that. This is a question about pride and symbolism, do we as americans have a little more pride than to let a bunch of america hating muslims build upon a symbolic ground, where american lives were lost due to their contemporaries beliefs? B/C if they weren't america hating muslims, they would not be pushing to build upon such sacred ground. If you got killed in your home, and your killer was your neighbors husband, that killer is now dead by lethal injection, do you think your kids and wife would want to see a damn shrine of this killer put up by his wife right next to you? Doesn't it beg the question, wtf is going on in that woman's head? Wow she is showing a whole lot of class putting up this shrine dedicated to all the good that this man did before he killed his neighbor! But hey, shouldn't we try to understand and learn what made him kill his neighbor.
Thats the thing my friends, its not a shrine or anything dedicated to those killers. Look as an American, those terrorists are my enemies, and as a Muslim, they are also my greatest enemies. Those guys have a political and social agenda and realize they kill more Muslims than they do of any people. This mosque and interfaith center, you know who it would offend the most and be most against it? Those very terrorist because they say that muslims can't live here amongst the west, they say we have no place in society, they have an exclusivist view that is harmful not just to the west but to muslims it self. Everything they do is against our religion in taking innocent lives and seeking revenge, etc. I hope you understand that, this mosque is not for them, this is for everything they were against, this is for everything the freedom towers represents, that America is a great country in the land for the free, and that sacred ground where Americans died(in that, American muslims died there) is sacred, important, and we will not stand or dignify the message of these terrorist, this mosque says all of that. So this is against them as much as anyone. Ihope you understand that
Tang, there is a level of ambiguity that lies in the "muslim-american". Where are your loyalties, your religion allows you to lie to people in the name of God, how do I know if you are being genuine? I don't believe I can ever really be sure..
Hey, its been an engaging topic discussing with you. May I ask where my religion says I can lie and about me being genuine and where the root of that information is? To be perfectly honest in my background, as I said,I was born and bred right here in Houston. My family has been here for over 30 years and thats why we came here, freedom, opportunity and we all feel truly blessed and know how lucky we are to be Americans. Infact we still ahve some family in middle east and south asia, and some wish they could be here, and the idea is that they are in bad situations not because of the religion or living in Islamic regimes, but simply those authoritarian politicians and so called leaders of the muslims world simply use the name islam for unification to assert power and that in the name of religion they can excersize their own agendas more powerfully. I know this as my father was somewhat the equivalent of a preist in our religion. So there have been many studying, reading, and researching the history and thoughts of our religion. You will find it interesting that majority of these terrorist are illiterate, meaning they can not read the quran itself, its more so emphasizing that their agenda is not religious in nature, but political, social agenda stemming from turmoil and cultural issues. I went to christian school throughout middle school and high school, as my father thought it would be important for me to read and understand the bible to prevent cultural and religious illiteracy. It helps at a time like this,post 9/11, I am able to see the parallels and the similarities in the messages of the religions and its just unfortunate when I see the news and they literally spew out utterly incorrect facts towards islam. Nonetheless, I have seen adn studies that not only can Islam and America coexist, that infact the things stressed in both ideals support each other. I am a devout Muslim in my opinion and I am also a patriotic and proud American. After 9/11, I had a strong view point against the terrorist and often imagined myself very much in an us vs them situation as a muslim, that they were defacing my religion, in light of this mosque, I have come to turn around and realize there is another line drawn behind me, one that some people view me as apart of them. Its disheartening as I wonder when did I go from being apart of us, where I was born, raised, an loved, I have family friends who are muslims who died in the army for this very country as I know of muslims who died while working in the towers. When did I change in their view from us and them, when was I not allowed to be in certain places, was it when some guy who would kill me just as easily as he would kill anyone else, some guy that I have nothing to do with came about these horrible attacks on my country and because he claims to be apart of the religion I have studied my whole life but does not actually exude or realize anything I have read within it, that seems to have grouped me with them. I think its ashamed that this religious and cultural illiteracy has created a strong and dangerous root of hatred and discrimination and thats why I felt the mosque can show a different light since its not just for muslims, but an interfaith center to learn about the teachings and a place to pray for everyone to show that it is about tolerance. none the less, I am curious to learn more about where you received your information and where your thoughts came out towards islam, If you would like, I'd love to treat you to a lunch if you would prefer that even. I am just curious to learn more, even when I don't agree with it, to better understand it and the roots of it. An interview I would like you to read, is from the Aga Khan, a muslim leader, in he looks Caucasian, wears a suit, yet it shows that Islam is not just arabic, Islam is multi faceted and universal, there is no one face of islam http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,442180,00.html http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6137720 Another interesting quote from him : Today, the world is divided into theocracies and secular states. Sometimes people talk – quite rightly – about the three nations which are, each in its own way, theocratic, namely Iran, Israel and Saudi Arabia. If they were to change, you would have a different world. If I dare say it, politics should be left to politicians, and God to God. and a really good read on the imam in charge of the mosque: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...imam-i-am-a-jew-i-have-always-been-one/61761/
Tang, The concept of Al Taqiyya, that is my question, where does the muslim american's loyalties lie?
That's referred to in an extreme situation, from the context of the quran at a time when a new regime came in and usually fore converted, killed, or expelled those they took over so if I guy put a knife to your family's head and says if they are muslims they die that technically justified that, my above opinions and stories are just my own dialogue, while I have for the first time experience racial tensions in a threatening manner, perhaps I had been lucky even in the christian school when 9 /11 had happened, I went to more people wanted to learn more about my side of things rather than deem me a terrorist sympathizer, but it seems this mosque is bringing about many tensions and misconceptions, and I suppose if they are brewining even internally, it is necessary to get them out in dialogue to be able to take care of these religious and cultural illiteracy. Once again, I am a person of Muslim faith, and I have my full loyalties to America. Its plain and simple, I was born and bred here, and I do have roots coming from elsewhere, yet I am an American plain and simple, and in a time like this I do believe this is not what this great country is about and our foundation of this country is about, but its something that with education and understanding can be overcome.
Tang, its not you and its not me, there is great distrust right now in general. I want to speak candidly, not threateningly, there is a misconception and in all honesty, I don't agree with much of Islam's teachings. I don't think that makes me any worse or better than you. My understanding of God is that he is all around us and I've never needed anything else but my heart to talk to him. That is my problem with Islam, with Christianity, will all religions in general. I have never supported the fact that man works as a median between God and I. Therefore, when I see controls in place of worship, I become skeptical.
Actually, I am in agreement with you, I have dealt with the bureaucracy in several prayer halls and organizations, and in my readings of islam, and in the quran, that is exactly how I interpret it. Very little of it is infact legislative, Its about the relationship and connection between God and the soul. However, just like with parts of christianity, judaism, and all faiths, people manipulate and twist things for their agenda, its unfortunate, however its reality. but I just don't agree that it is Islam itself, rather the certain people. I think you would be interested in learning about the sufi interpretation of Islam as well, its very much revolved around between connection to God. once again they are not the right or wrong version of islam, just another part of a very much multi faceted ever evolving being just like religion in general. None the less, yes I do see we have differences in our view and I think that is ok and even more important to create dialogue and come to a better understanding of the others' views so long as it is done civilly. thats why in this board, there are some very intelligent minds here, yet it often gets sidetracked to insults, etc. which just aren't progressive and lead no where.
Refute your points? You haven't made any. Only deceptively worded questions. My claim is supported by observation. You engage in fallacious reasoning multiple times in your posts. You are not some genius debater, no matter what you think. This is only one board on a Rockets fan forum. If you think you can keep up in an intellectually honest debate, try something like debatepolitics.com. Let's see how long it takes for you to get exposed.
Even this pig yawns after reading your post. So your point is that "this is only a Rockets fan forum", are you implying that people here are more stupid than on that other board you mentioned? Why don't you just stay there then and leave us alone.
Taqiyya only applies if you are avoiding being murdered or avoiding being tortured in an Inquisition-like setting. Falsely expanding it into some concept of secret fifth-column infiltration speaks more to your insecurities.
So only then its ok to lie? How does the muslim define "Inquistion"? What is "torture"? I am in no way trying to expand the meaning, simply trying to understand...you obviously have read up on my past right wing beliefs that muslims are on a subversive trip in America. Why would you bring up the thought of a fifth column?
So be it that Islam is the religion you honor. Thankfully, we live in a society that allows us to believe in whatever it is we want to believe in. So, if they build that mosque or not, I can believe it is right or wrong, I can voice my opinion, and I can say f**k you to the Chinese b/c they cannot censor me. My contention is that most people are good Tang, no matter what stupid religion or pagan god they believe in. I for one believe in a God, whatever he is, I think he's there, and I think he's on our side.
If you are about to be murdered because of your religion. It does not apply to when you commit a crime and the court has decided to punish you. It does not apply to religious "pressure" being put on you. Only if your life is unjustly in danger because of religion.
There is a lot of room for interpretation... How does the muslim identify their demise as a function of their religion? Do I have to have the sword to my neck or can I lie in order to perpetually postpone the thought, which could be interpreted as whatever is necessary? What do I believe as my life in unjustly danger?
