Hey sorry about the fubu response. I did find that kind of insulting and probably should have waited for you to explain. We do agree on that I guess. Several months ago we had a real knock down drag out about education and I showed a lot of statistics about how blacks were underrepresented in colleges around the country, particularly among the best schools. Too bad the search feature won't go that far back. Somehow that devolved into how much U of H sucks/doesn't suck but anyways...
I appreciate the apology, but it isn't necessary. After re-reading it I could see easily what people could think. I shouldn't have posted something that needed an explanation. That has nothing to do with race, but with socio-economic status and the fact that the parents of the poor traditionally do not value education. Therefore they do not stress it. Therefore the kids don't seek it. My mother was told as a child that she would not be going to college. That they could not afford to send her to school to find a husband.
That makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't label it as reparations, then, but I think to create funds like that would be a great and appropriate idea. I don't know enough to know to what extent such funds exist already, but it seems like something everyone could agree on.
It's easy. You take the money from educational programs that are failing and reallocate them to the new plan. Also for higher education, the states can reallocate their lottery generated funds. A friend has a cousing in a state school in Georgia...due to the lottery if she maintains a certain GPA then she pays no tuition or fees. It would all take some wrangling and reallocation...but it could be done.
This is false. Learn a little more about it before you make this argument. Achebe, A few things... First, you should know that if you enter a reparations thread you should not use incorrect/derogatory terms such as "the Moors." Next, sure they invaded Europe, but they were eventually pushed back and decimated themselves, so how can they owe anyone anything? Also, when they took over they didn't have massive slave networks, etc...and they actually maintained western culture (even before the invasions they were the only ones who kept Greek and Roman texts alive). Without commenting on reparations, I will just say this wasn't a great example. Refman, The poor are not the only ones who overspend on material goods. Our society as a whole is completely materialist/consumerist sometimes to a fault. In order to be a winner you must consume. Therefore it is not really a surprise that it gets heightened in the ghetto and everyone wants to show how much jewelry and fancy clothing they can buy...since no one has any money. It really is sad because it is such a waste and it really is a perpetuation of this stupid materialistic cycle.
Here is an idea, Rather then focusing on skin color why not just go with the "All men are created equal" bit and move forward? DD
Tht is one thing that would be accomplished by reforming the education system for all students. You would even the playing field and remove the root of the inequities.
Agreed. Do you think that reforming the education system will fix a lot of the purely economic problems?
I'm all for that. Go to a public high school in a rich neighbourhood (majority white) and in a poor neighbourhood (majority black/latino) and tell me all these kids have the same opportunity.
I stated my position on reperations in the other thread, so I'm just gonna respond to an argument I have seen here... I am also in the lower socio-economic class,(I barely make $14,000 a year) and I have had to fight and claw for every thing I own. I have spend countless hours over the years in college tryin to better my situation. why can't others do so also? There is noone keeping the poor from goin to school to better their education...I happen to know there are countless grants and financial aid for lower income students...The only thing keeping the poor from school is their lack of motivation. btw jared, you did a great job of stating this in your post, and its sad to see that apparently noone noticed it...
I am also in the lower socio-economic class,(I barely make $14,000 a year) and I have had to fight and claw for every thing I own. I have spend countless hours over the years in college tryin to better my situation. why can't others do so also? There is noone keeping the poor from goin to school to better their education... There *are* things keeping the poor from going to school to better their education. Things like teachers who are incompetent, schools that are run down, administrators who could care less, family situations that require kids making money *now*, etc. You can't learn if the people who are supposed to be teaching you spend all their time dealing with other issues in the schools or simply don't care anymore. If that's all you've ever known, that's how your world will be shaped. The whole idea of fairness is based on equal <I>opportunity</I> and that's not the case right now in our school system.
Rockets2k, Well said, and it will all pay off for you someday, believe me. I am in favor of having the education system create EQUAL budgets for all public schools. I don't think any rich kid should get a better education then a poor kid, the children of our country are our future, they all deserve an equal chance to succeed. Now, if the rich do not like it, they can send their kids to private schools. That way you are not penalizing them, if they CHOOSE to send their kids to a private school, the choice is still there. The key is that you are not penalizing any child. DD
Sure, let's have a conversation about the dine, or the pueblo. Or Pre-Pueblo. Oh yeah, every now and then I'll say Navajo or Anasazi so I don't lose 60% of my audience. Yeah they were pushed back... after nearly a thousand years of kickin' my people's ass. Hey we have gullah in South Carolina. We also have all of those yummy okra dishes. Mmmmm... West African culture lives! As far as the 'massive' slave networks go... are you being somewhat disingenuous. Were there 'mediocre' slave networks? More importantly, can I spot you a thousand years of being oppressed and little to no slavery for a few hundred years of barbaric colonialism? Free my people!! It was a superb example, in that it highlights the fact that groups oppress other groups. Evolution has shaped us to be wary of people unlike ourselves. (It has also shaped men to rape other women.. try not to be hysterical and think that I'm a social darwinist, btw). People oppress others, that are not of their group. In that light, I think that 'reparations' are silly. I think that something that focuses on modern day dichotomies is apt, however... i.e. affirmative action.
Wasting money on foolish things is a mindset - not racial thing. I worked nights and went to school during the day (UH). I worked hard, ate cheap and lived cheap. I got a good job (thanks UH), saved my money and now I am doing ok. My brother-in-law on the other hand would blow anything given to him. Use his tax refund to pay some debts? Nah - new riding mower (he had a good lawnmower and his lawn is very small). He'll be borrowing again next month from his better off relatives because "they have it better and always will". On education - in our area, the county splits the money between all the schools. They give more money in the poorer areas while the richer areas have to have fundraisers to make up the difference. No one complains. They also give the teachers a $5k a year bonus to teach in the poorer schools. There is still a great difference in the test scores and drop out rate. You can't blame it all on money spent on education.
I'm loving this! Refman, you are doing a great job articulating your point, and I believe it is the correct point to be making. Timing, you've just gotten humiliated again by someone with a superior grasp of the issues. My favorite has to be blaming the income gap on the poor performance of civil rights reform. What a joke. I guess some people just expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. The rest of us work hard and earn a living. I think this point has come across strongly throughout the three pages of this "debate".
See, I am trying to help you keep your audience...since it seems to be so small to begin with. Am I not nice? Unless your ancestors were specifically souther European, then they really didn't "kick your people's ass" for 1000 years. Hey we have gullah in South Carolina. We also have all of those yummy okra dishes. Mmmmm... West African culture lives! Now that is a really bad example since there is a specific and devious reason for the West Africans being kept together instead of separated as was the usual procedure. Besides, the whites were not exactly promoting their culture, they banned it...the gullah continued it in secret and it was eventually lost as far as understanding the source goes. Only recently was it brought to their, West Africa's, and the general US's attention that there was a direct link. As far as the 'massive' slave networks go... are you being somewhat disingenuous. Were there 'mediocre' slave networks? Well, the "moors" kept slave networks in Africa, but not Europe...so screw you. It was a superb example, in that it highlights the fact that groups oppress other groups. Evolution has shaped us to be wary of people unlike ourselves. (It has also shaped men to rape other women.. try not to be hysterical and think that I'm a social darwinist, btw). People oppress others, that are not of their group. You need to drop that schooling you are doing now and go to "good example" school because that and the new one you brought up were so pitiful. Christians and Jews were not terribly oppressed once the Muslims invaded whatever areas...so "oppression" does not really apply. All they did was kick a little pasty ass. Since Europe was "the center of the earth," "God's chosen land," and "the place from which all humanity sprung" then maybe all of those nebulous entities should be sued for reparations? I know that you would like that heb. Oh, haven't you read the high school science books in South Carolina? Evolution doesn't exist. I am not in favor of reparations on a practical or philosophical level, but I wouldn't mind them just so whitey will be forced to pay - in multiple senses of that word.
There are. My mother works at an elementary school. She overheard a white cafeteria worker telling a coworker that the governement owes her a living because she was born here. My thought on that is WTF???!!! I thought this nation was founded on self-reliance. The point is that the US governement entitlements programs have engendered this feeling amongst the poor. It is NOT a racial phenomenon...it is a socio-economic phenomenon. So the next time you hear something like that, thank your Congressman. The entitlements have given the poor this thought. I honestly can't blame them for thinking that way given the current system.
