Timing will tell you that they want studies...but they already have a lawyer seeking the actual payments.
i haven't read a single post on this thread, but let me say this... "SLAVE REPARATIONS" IS A BIG CROCK OF SH*T.
Originally posted by Refman Government of the people, for the people and by the people. We are the government...or did you skip civics class? LMAO You're telling me about semantics? The government did none of those things. They allowed slavery...period. I'd love to imprison and sue all the people that did the acts...but their dead and buried. They allowed kidnappings, murders, rapes, etc. They also passed the Fugitive Slave Act which probably violates parts of the Bill of Rights. What was legal is relevant since it is the legal system doleing our reparations we are talking about here. you can't tear the legal system out of this. Try again. Sure we can. We do it like this... fund a study on slavery's impact on the black community and follow the recommendations of the study. You don't need any courts for that. Very relevant. We instituted many of these programs to lift the black people out of homelessness. It was to even the playing field. Also affirmative action has an intrinsic value. You can't just ignore what has already been paid because it suits your argument. It was to even the playing field and it obviously hasn't so we should stick with what doesn't work? That doesn't make any sense. What programs have we instituted for the descendants of slavery? Name one, any one, any of em. You are so out of touch with how the world works that it is disgusting...no borderline about it. You are wanting to ignore the legal system and all of its principles while asking the legal system for redress...nice logic. You're telling me blacks kids, apparently en masse, choose to drop out of high school and not to go to college and I'm out of touch with reality? LOL I'm asking for a STUDY. You're the one wanting to play law school professor. A 1997 study (you're fond of those) showed that the lower socio-economic stratus spends their money on entertainment and fancy clothing over ALL ELSE. I saw it forst hand when my uncle (low economic status) would spend his last dollar on a show. Sorry that I didn't get my point across. I can see how you'd think that I was being inflammatory...sorry. It does not excuse your behavior of calling me an idiot though. Well where is it?
Hmm. I really can't agree with just seeking payment now. But I do say do the studies. I don't really know how I feel about 'reparations'. I need facts, I need details, I need support and I need real knowledge before I can form an opinion. I really don't feel one way or the other, but maybe because I'm hispanic and it doesn't effect me since hispanics tend to be ignored anyway. But there's no harm in doing the studies. It would probably help no matter what angle you're looking at it from. Find out just what the facts are.
Oh my... Refman, you are an idiot. I first noticed this when you played 'giddyup in the outgroup' (seriously... you disagree w/ abortion, hmmm... what reasons are there to disagree w/ abortion... how should we label this... what's morally compelling about abortion... hmmmm). This quote is over the top, however. You are a sheltered, disingenuous, hypocritical fool. It's probably just because you get so emotional during these conversations... so maybe I should give pause. *Pause*. Nope, that was still something asinine to write. Back on topic, Timing, you've done a great job framing your concerns. You've put them in a really compelling light. I have been against reparations, partly b/c of the theatrics I see in Farakhan(sp), partly b/c of truisms in history... ie, people subjugate others. The Moors ruled Europe... and European Americans oppressed everyone in their sphere of influence. 'Repeat'. I tend to think that affirmative action will cure many an ill, but your posts are clear. Regardless of the fact that I get riled up whenever I hear the word 'sue' I should take this subject a bit more seriously. Unfortunately, I'll lose my moment of good will on this topic as soon as I hear the word 'sue' again, but let's cherish this moment, shall we...
WTF? How very mature of you. I'm not backtracking -- my initial statement was simply unclear. I don't mean to say that anyone that owns a TV, or has digital cable or an internet connection, or drives a nice car is selfish because they don't use that same money to make charitable donations. I was merely saying that if you are going to pay taxes regardless, and if you would rather have that money go towards affording you some of the more frivolous luxuries in life, or funding foreign wars half the globe away, as opposed to helping out a family that might need it to dig themselves out of a hole they didn't choose to be in, then yes I would consider you selfish. Period, ellipse, semi-colon, whatever... Now, if that makes me ignorant about governmental economics, well I'll grant you that. I'm what they call "intellectually lazy" when it comes to numbers in the billions. Like I said, the issue of reparations is complicated when it comes to the logistics of it all. I wouldn't know where to begin. That's why I would be very interested to see what a study could come up with. BTW Refman, that FUBU remark is reprehensible. After reading something like that, I'm not surprised that you feel so strongly about this issue.
The Bill of Rights didn't apply to the slaves. It wasn't until the passage of the 14th and 15th Amendments that African-Americans were protected by the Constitution. It isn't right...but you can't ask for money for violating rights that didn't exist at the time. If this isn't going to court then explain to me why the group organizing the march has hired an attorney to seek the reparations. And do you really think that the Supreme Court won't have to hear this case should reparations be funded? Affirmative action...I named it in the quote you reproduced. Read the stats. It isn't about race...but socio economic status. I'm not playing law school professor. Paredon me if I interject my knowledge of the legal system. I am an attorney...I am familiar with the legal system. In a topic like this it's fair game. If you don't like it then don't argue about things that touch upon the legal system. I read it...in paper form in 1998 for a class. I don't have it in electronic format and I'm not going to go dig it up just for you. You are obviously clueless as to what giving out the level of funds sought would do to the country. It would bankrupt it. You want a study...done by whom? What safeguards would you have in place to ensure that there is no self-dealing? And why is there a group that has hired an attorney likely to file suit for reparations? I doubt you can answer those questions.
As I said before I conveyed a message I did not intend. I deserve your responses. I offer no defense to it other than the conveyed message what not what was intended. My apologies to all who were offended.
Who cares about the study? Your example pointed out Fubu clothes... would you be wary of modern day reparations to the Japanese (for example) b/c they would 'turn all of their rice burners into sleepers'? Do you understand who constitutes the lower socio-economic levels of this country? Would you care to touch on some causality? Maybe... it's b/c the blacks and their Fubu, and the latinos and their el caminos, eh?? There are a ton of things that we do that aren't fiscally sound... we execute murderers, we raise babies, for example. Timing is just pointing out that, were people to honestly look at the study, and were the study to suggest that these people were disenfranchised because of slavery, perhaps the government should do something.
Refman, I read your reply after I typed my previous post. I apologize for the pile-on. We all write unclearly sometimes, I'll "look for the good" in mankind. My words were excessive... nighty-night.
Originally posted by Refman The Bill of Rights didn't apply to the slaves. It wasn't until the passage of the 14th and 15th Amendments that African-Americans were protected by the Constitution. It isn't right...but you can't ask for money for violating rights that didn't exist at the time. Oh man... I wish some Congressman would say something like that. If this isn't going to court then explain to me why the group organizing the march has hired an attorney to seek the reparations. And do you really think that the Supreme Court won't have to hear this case should reparations be funded? Its a free country Refman. Anyone can sue or say whatever they want. Unfortunately the reparations movement, if you can call it a movement, isn't particularly organized at this time and there are going to be people who come forth that I personally would rather not see, like Farrakhan, Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, etc. They to me really put a bad face on the issue and will surely inflame people who are sympathetic to the issue but not some black leaders. Affirmative action...I named it in the quote you reproduced. Affirmative action applies to all minorities. It's not exclusive to the descendants of slavery. Read the stats. It isn't about race...but socio economic status. LOL C'mon man... the stats say white people have continued to hold the gap of wealth between whites and blacks over the last 30 years. If affirmative action is a tool to level the playing field then how can you really say it's not a big flaming failure? I'm not playing law school professor. Paredon me if I interject my knowledge of the legal system. I am an attorney...I am familiar with the legal system. In a topic like this it's fair game. If you don't like it then don't argue about things that touch upon the legal system. This topic gets batted back and forth between lawsuits, legalese, and morality. You seem highly centered on the legal aspect of it while completely ignoring the social aspect of it. That's disturbing frankly. I read it...in paper form in 1998 for a class. I don't have it in electronic format and I'm not going to go dig it up just for you. Well explain then, poor people spend a higher percentage of their income on entertainment? Then again they spend a higher percentage of their income just to live so I dunno what kind of stats you mean. You are obviously clueless as to what giving out the level of funds sought would do to the country. It would bankrupt it. I think everyone involved can agree that any amount that vastly impairs the nation is not in the best interests here. You want to dismiss this on the off chance that we will bankrupt ourselves in the process. You want a study...done by whom? What safeguards would you have in place to ensure that there is no self-dealing? And why is there a group that has hired an attorney likely to file suit for reparations? I doubt you can answer those questions. I'm sure a group of historians and sociologists etc. can be found to conduct this study. I doubt that would be something that can't be worked out. If the government agreed to reparations then of course any potential lawsuits should be thrown out or simply one lawsuit settled with class action status. Until then anyone can feel free to sue away.
No. I thought of an example of expensive clothing worn by youth and posted it. I did not envision the unintended message. There are poor from all races. My parents were raised poor. The poor oftentimes spend their money on expensive clothing and entertainment rather than anything else. I apologized for the unintended message and ask you only to see that it was unintended. Other than that I deserve the flaming that I am getting. A main reason that the mentioned groups are poor is because of substandard education in the inner city. There are refoems under way and hopefully things will get better. Spending patterns are not the cause of poverty, they result from poverty. I just disagree that a straight monetary payment is the something that needs to be done. Reform education...continue affirmative action (although I'd like to see a better system). I have often been a proponent of zero interest student loans or free education for maintaining a certain GPA for ALL students.
No apology needed. After your post I re-read mine and I was embarrassed. I honestly did not intend a racist message. It was one of those moments whereyou think: Wait! That's not what I meant!!! I wish I had made myself clear in the original post.
There are lots of things I wish a Congressman would say, but they won't. Most politicians do not explain the legal system on hot topics because they want to get re-elected. Now that I agree with. Unfortunately, these are the peole with the financial backing to carry this through whatever process is set up. Interestingly enough, there is disagreement in the African-American community as to whether reparations are the right thing to ask for. You can see them debating the issues on various news outlets. The debates are lively and give a good perspective on the issue. When Affirmative Action started it was supposed to even the playing foeld for African-Americans. It was later expanded to include other minorities. It has been. I think it puts the emphasis on the wrong end of the process. If you better inner city education so that the youth are encouraged to stay in school, and then have zero interest student loans or free college for a certain GPA then you will improve their economic condition. The study sought to determine what the poor value the highest and what they would spend their last dollar on if they had a choice. The overwhelming response (among whites as well as blacks) was entertainment/designer clothing. For example the poor as a group would rather spend their money on a satellite dish than on the upkeep of their home. Mind you this was just one study, but it was the only one of its kind I had ever heard of. Also if you look at whites and blacks in the same economic state, their spending patterns are very similar. I can only go on the numbers I have heard. Every time I see this discussed on the news outlets, the number is well into the trillions. It is a scary proposition. I am against reparations but for reforming the education system that has caused a lot of the problems. Inner city education has deteriorated to the point that many of these youths drop out or don't go to college after graduation. There was a private after school program done in Washington D.C. for a group of inner city kids over 12 years. Over half of those kids went to college. I can't remember what it was called because I saw the story so long ago. Maybe starting programs like that all over the country is the answer. I just don't think that a lump sum monetary payment is the way to go. It won't improve the economic condition of those involved. An amount to do so would be in the trillions and WOULD bankrupt the nation.
I didn't read all the replies to this thread, but I am going to express my opinion on this matter. Reparations for African-Americans is a ridiculous notion, and should in no way come to fruition. Slavery has existed since before written history, it is an ugly and detestful thing, but it happened. The Egyptians had the Hebrews, the Spanish had the Aztecs. The United States wasn't the only country to have African slaves. Portugal, Spain, France, England, and many other European countries had slaves, and I don't see their governments or their descendants of slaves coming out of the woodwork demanding reparations for their ancestors. I think it a farce, and am embarassed to see individuals who would call themselves "Civil Rights activists" demanding reparations. But let me pose this question, If given reparations, would the African-American community rise up to great prosperity? Would I no longer have to hear how the MAN is keeping them down? How because of their dark skin they are frowned upon and looked down at, and kept below the glass ceiling? I don't think so. As for Farakhan, this guy is a walking, talking contradiction in a cheap suit and bow tie. Every word I hear come out of this man's mouth cuts through me. The Nation of Islam is an unscrupulous group of scoundrels, whose reputation is considered squeaky clean by the brain-washed, meager sheep who follow them (see Quanel X). The notion that a large group of people believe that they are owed something because their ancestors were slaves is ridiculous. My ancestors were slaves by the Spanish, but I have yet to petition the Spanish government for reparations, why you ask, because its ridiculous. In the United States we have freedoms and rights, and to hear individuals say that they don't have a fair chance in life, that they are intentionally kept down, I point out to Booker T. Washington, Thurgood Marshall, Duke Ellington, Russell Simmons, Colin Powell, and other African-Americans who became successful. Success is not guaranteed by the color of your skin, but by the measure of your character, the drive and tenacity that you exhibit in striving to make your life better. If the so-called "civil rights" activists and other individuals who believe that they are owed something truly believe that reparations (money, the root of all evil) will make all their suffering for the last couple of hundred years all go away, then they would truly do the honor of their ancestors an injustice. Watching the news the other day, I saw a large group of individuals outside the Houston City Council, and I heard many quotes like, " This country owes us", and " We're not asking for reparations, we're demanding them". Seeing the scenes that I saw, and hearing what I heard it reminded me of a great line I heard from Chris Rock, "I love black people, but I hate n!ggers". And before I am labeled a racist, or the quote is taken out of context, Chris Rock went on to say black people are a hard-working beautiful people, n!ggers want a hand out and want to coast through life without having to work hard for it. And thats what I see when I watch the news and hear the intense bickering of people who want a handout at the expense of their own ancestors.
Nope! You said FUBU! FUBU IS FUBU! You said we read don't backtrack PERIOD! Just kidding refman -- I, too, apologize -- not for calling the remark reprehensible, but the statement after that which implied something about you as a person. Context can get you sometimes, but I hope you understand now what I was trying to say, before you go and punctuate my sentences again. It's too late in the a.m. Peace to the fam
Understood. Maybe somebody up there was trying to teach me something about smarting off to people. I appreciate the apology. I didn't mean to post something that could be read as reprehensible.
Well I gotta get some sleep but just wanted to say I totally agree with you here. I don't favor checks being cut to individuals but rather some type of fund to be created. Any potential reparations must start by addressing education.
BTW...for a reform of the education system which would make education more desirable and affordable for ALL students...there needs to be no study. I say we do it right now. I have always been in favor of a better education system. The way it stands right now, I realize there are easily obtainable student loans, but if you tell a poor kid of any race that they'll have to pay back $20,000 plus interest you may as well tell them they have to singlehandedly pay off the national debt. It seem insurrmountable. this needs to change.
