Face it we cant get rid of racism no matter what , if all the world was white we would probably discrimiate people for the color of their eyes . The south never wanted to abolish slavery its a well known fact . Many southerners are good people who dont have anything against blacks . But if Billy's younger sister is going out with a "Black person" Billy and his friends aint gonna be to happy . James Byrd was dragged to death because he was black , Malcom X and MLK jr. were shot because they dared to make a stand for what is right . Americans are Americans Blacks are Americans Whites are Americans Indians are Americans . ------------------ Will Work for Clutch 101 Book
DC: You made my point exactly. The fact is that you cannot dismiss out of hand something that happens under odd circumstances. Brian: You should know me better than to think I assume that everyone knows it's coming. My mother is a therapist and I have encountered suicidal people many times as the result of her practice. The difference in this case is that you have a lot of evidence (circumstantial as it may be) that points to something other than suicide: hung from a tree in his front yard, black kid dating a white girl in a Mississippi town, hung with a belt that didn't belong to him, good kid who knew that there were racial tensions surrounding him dating a white girl. My point is that you cannot dismiss something without looking into it fully. These types of things happened with all too common regularity for years and years. Now, with the barrage of media and the condemnation of racisim throughout most of the country, it is thankfully becoming more scarce. This wouldn't have registered at all 30 years ago. No one would've noticed. No media would've cared. I sincerely hope that no one else was involved and that what we have is another tragic suicide (that is a topic for another thread), but, if not, the family deserves and citizens demand that law enforcement does its job and investigates ALL options. ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
I'm just pointing out that in a rush to build a credible argument, people sometimes overreach. Much of the evidence that's been established is quite credible, but the idea that "he seemed so happy and successful and well-adjusted and had so much to look for, NO WAY HE KILLED HIMSELF!" is silly. That should be left out of the argument. I don't care if he was turning cartwheels and laughing his ass off the day before-- surface appearances mean nothing when dealing with suicide. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
Johnson was found hanging from a small pecan tree near the front door of his rural home June 16, with a belt around his neck his family says did not belong to him. There seems to be alot of racist symbolism when a black kid is hanging from a tree in Mississippi. Interesting to note, is the fact that the kid had been pulled over 3 different times by local police, when his white girlfriend was in the car. My wife saw a blib on CNN which pointed out that the KKK coincidentally meets up under a bridge rather close to this kid's house. This town seems to have a bit of a taste of racism in it, ehhh? There seem to be five scenarios: 1) The kid was murdered for racist reasons. 2) The kid was murdered for non-racist reasons. 3) The kid committed suicide in the front yard as a confrontational act against his parents. 4) The kid committed suicide in the front yard as a confrontational act against some other element. 5) The kid accidentally killed himself in the front yard during a Civil War reenactment (sorry, just had to take a stab at Civil War reenactments). Crucial factors: a) No suicide note? b) The validity of the claim that the belt did not belong to the kid. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Some of you guys wonder why there is racism. Do we really need to know about this any more than any other crime? Do we need to know about the gruesome death of Byrd being dragged to death? This only incites more racism. The fact we are sitting here going off on this poor ol black guy just proves it. Here is something to ponder: A 10 year old boy and a 5 year old boy in the 5th ward walk to the store to buy some groceries because they are hungry. They get shot because they are white. Do we hear about this? No! A teenager is 'lynched' in mississippi because because he is dating a white girl. The media eats it up. RACISM!!! we live in a racist world!! Blah blah blah ... Now if I was a black guy that lived in a very racist town in mississippi, do you think i would be stupid enough to date a white girl? HELL NO! Im not stupid! And don't take this as I justify has happen, because this is horrible and wrong. Just like i know better than to shave my head and walk through the 5th Ward. This site shows how ridiculas racism has become. Although I disagree a little with this site, a majority of it is true. NCAAWP I totally agree with thier saying ... "Equal Rights for All Special Privileges for None" ------------------
We HAVE to hear about racism. Look, dismissing racist acts (white on black or black on white) is like turning a blind eye to suffering and problems. Indifferece never solved anything, only bold action did. To suggest that reading about racism only invites further racism is like saying that reading about murder invites further murders. The ONLY way we improve ourselves as people and as a society is by becoming more educated. ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
"A teenager is 'lynched' in mississippi because because he is dating a white girl. The media eats it up. RACISM!!! we live in a racist world!! Blah blah blah ... Now if I was a black guy that lived in a very racist town in mississippi, do you think i would be stupid enough to date a white girl? HELL NO! Im not stupid! And don't take this as I justify has happen, because this is horrible and wrong. Just like i know better than to shave my head and walk through the 5th Ward." So, it was the black guy's fault. Man was he stupid to be born black and date a girl who happened to be born with less melanin than himself. You know.... racism isn't all about Nazis, Neo Nazis, Black Panthers, or the KKK. Those are all extremist groups and don't share the same thinking as the majority of people. Racism is more about that ingrained way of thinking, like in Space Ghost's post. It's that "seperatist" way of thinking. It's that everyday stuff like a white person driving through a largely black neighborhood and speeding up, because they're scared something bad will happen to them. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited July 16, 2000).]
Jeff and Space Ghost, Man...talk about yanking me out of lurk mode. This thread is basically my religion. I live much of my life contemplating racist beliefs, looking out for them, learning about them, and ultimately having faith that I can lessen them by making a difference on a one-on-one level any chance I get. This topic is essentially a lifelong study of mine through books and immersing myself in it through conversation and listening. I do not say listen to me because I have several minority friends or some other triteness, as if my experience and learning should become some didactic discourse. I say, listen to everyone. I believe what Dreamer just wrote, that prejudice, bigotry and racism are not just about expremist sects. It is about our culture, and thus all of us. Jeff, you can't start a conversation like this and expect not to find comments like Space Ghost's. Space Ghost's comment that "racism is ridiculous", cries out for me to say he is essentially dismissing the meaning of a very important word in our language. But, it is not that easy. The word "racism" is more that just a word with a complicated definition. I believe the word exists to express passion towards individual empirical phenomenon that do exist, whether others believe someone is using the word in a manner they deem appropriate, I strongly believe the word is always used correctly. If beauty is in the "eye of the beholder", so is racism. The story behind this topic is worthy of news and even hype. But, my comments are not about the story. Let's talk about what we know. I seek out conversations with strangers all the time, just to see how other people live and think. For some reason, a significant percentage of people use such conversations to express their xenophobias, and at that point I switch modes to listen. I know racism exists (is active and dangerous) because I get reminded of it roughly once a month by someone who treats friendly conversation as a vehicle for telling me how they personally don't like one race/class/religion or another. I also know from personal experience that many black people despise dealing with white people, and to the level of hating them. Space Ghost, I'm very interested in hearing more about why you think racism is ridiculous. Try looking at the word the same way you would the word "beauty". Beauty is defined at a cultural level (e.g. by television), yet everyone has their individual definition as well, based on their own experience. If our culture considers this a very useful word for expressing beliefs and is trying to come to grips with its various definitions by talking about it, which this story and this thread exemplify, then count on the media always speaking about it. They should. Just because many people use the word frivolously, and thereby dilute its meaning, does not mean that violent and discriminating acts based purely on racism don't exist. That certainly would not be ridiculous. What is worse is that the dilution of the word's original meaning is getting to the point that many people feel it is not worth discussing any more. That cannot be! SG...Allow me to offer another perspective to your comments. Let me start by saying that every race can have racist or bigoted beliefs. Saying America is full of racists (as many French and English people will tell you)...is correct. What they forget is this WORLD is full of racists. I do not belief the word has to mean "hatred towards others based of race". If the word elicits passion from the user, then yes, it is probably accompanied with hate. But even if people use the word for their own benefit, as you say the media does, does that even make it ridiculous? I contend that any personal belief, whether passionate or not, that centers around a fundamental belief that people are different based on their race, is racism. By that definition, one would be making a simple Nature versus Nuture argument. (In fact, racism fueled the Social Darwinism movement that beget the Nature versus Nuture argument to begin with.) To me, the nature argument is EVIL...it is the devil. (I had to toss that in for Crisco and Nikestrad). For those who want to sidetrack this conversation to try to persuade me differently about my feelings towards Social Darwinism....don't bother!!! Remember my opening comment..."this is my religion", you won't persuade me to believe differently. In short Space Ghost, talk of racism when it truly elicits passion from the beholder...is never ridiculous. I would go so far to say, any talk about racism is important, because that is a very useful conversation for learning about each other. Indeed, racism is used frivolously, often. But don't give up the word so fast. Use it to express yourself and to learn about others. It is not an evil word. Ignoring it, and thus not coming to grips with its existence, is evil. peace biscuit [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited July 17, 2000).]
Heypartner is on the right track. Speaking in semantic terms (my favorite kind), racism is nearly dead. Racism as per its stock definition refers to the belief in the inherent genetic superiority of a racial group. That belief is exceedingly rare nowadays, and the only people I ever hear espouse it look like someone dragged a Sears catalogue through a trailer park. These people aren't to be taken seriously. Bigotry, on the other hand, is the irrational hate of or prejudice towards an ethnic or racial group. And that is alive and well. Bigots are to be taken seriously, because you'll meet them in every social strata in America. I'm just voting in favor of tightening the nation's vocabulary. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
BK: I believe you are using bigotry incorrectly. It can be used to say you dislike anyone outside your group, race, class, religion, etc. Racism is purely about race. On a pure semantic level, bigotry is more a superset of racism. For instance, I'm a bigot for hating Karl Malone, but not racist. Sure, there is a racial "superiority" interpretation that Social Darwinism cultivated that I believe definitely still exists. But why get into semantics and say racism is dead in its original sense. No matter how you slice it, that statement will be offensive to many. Passions and actions exist that are directly due to dislike, fear, misunderstanding of others based purely on race. And many of those people have no problem with differences of religion or classes, just race. Racism is not dead! Screw the semantics. The word should be used to express these beliefs, not bigotry. My personal belief is that this country is easily the farthest along in dealing with race, but that means this world is in a pitiful state. We are far, far from completely dealing with it. The sooner we all admit there are many levels of racism, and winning a war on supremacy is just the beginning, the sooner we can truly say racism is dead. Use the word racism; admit it exists; and listen to others. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited July 17, 2000).]
This has to rank as one of the deeper and better threads in this BBS's history. I'd much rather just read, listen and learn from the various posters, but thought I'd offer a simple reasoning to how and why racism starts. I remember reading it in a book I once read, dealing with stereotypes and prejudices. Of course, as HP and BK illustrated, racism is much more complex than that, but I found this very true nonetheless. Ignorance --> Misconceptions --> Negative Images --> Stereotypes --> Reductionism --> Prejudice --> Bias --> Racism Azim da Dream ------------------ We don't live for the destination. We live for the journey.
Heypartner, you know I respect the hell out of you, but I have to disagree with you semantically speaking. Racism means what its definition says it means. I know that popular usage tends to dictate otherwise, but George Carlin made a really great point about changing the language just because people are missing the meaning of the word. He didn't say it politely or profanity-free. So, **** it, I won't quote him. Kagy is about to attempt regime satori in semantics Racism, to me, is a clinical term applied to what I consider to be mentally deranged people who believe one racial strain is superior to another. It does not apply to a person who forms an incorrect but carefully calculated decision to (for example) fire a black person because he hates the rap music the guy listens to. That's bigotry born of a misunderstanding of cultural differences. It doesn't mean the bigot in question is convinced that an affinity for rap indicates an inferior genetic quality. It just means he's a ****in' bigot. Now, to touch on one other topic you raised, you're right-- who the hell cares? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet (unless you called it a stenchblossom, per Bart Simpson). This is irrelevant to the matter of eradicating bias in our society; I am just a washed-up English/History major who truly loves semantics. Ask Rocketman95 if you need further proof! ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
To bring this conversation back to shallower waters and closer to the original topic, Bill O'Reilly said tonight on his show that a pathologist hired by the boy's family examined the body and found no evidence of murder. This would be the third such conclusion in this case and the first one independent of law enforcement. ------------------
Kagy, Racial prejudice or discrimination also fits the definition of being a racist... that is, any preconceived notion of what being an individual of a race might mean (ex. back in the mid-90s the question 'why would Collin Powell ever be a republican?' was asked about a billion times on my campus at the College of Charleston). ------------------ The ClutchCity 500. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited July 17, 2000).]
there has been, in every human heart, living and dead, the taint of BIGOTRY. one heart, free of the taint, came that we might know to erase the stain... and died an insurrectionist's death at the hands of the Roman Empire and his brethren. an end to BIGOTRY? look to Him... but do it before His message is driven completely from our society by the Supreme Court. ------------------ It takes a lot of brains to enjoy satire, humor and wit- but none to be offended by them.
BK, I disagree with your limited definition of both "bigotry" and "racism". But, even if that was the only defintion, and for the sake of arguing your last post I'll consider that to be true, I still think that racism is the better term. "Racism is a clinical term applied to people who believe one racial strain is superior to another." "bigotry is born of a misunderstanding of cultural differences. It doesn't mean the bigot in question is convinced that an affinity for rap indicates an inferior genetic quality. It just means he's a ****in' bigot." But, where does that distaste for someone's culture come from? A sense of superiority of one's own culture. "Racism as per its stock definition refers to the belief in the inherent genetic superiority of a racial group. That belief is exceedingly rare nowadays, and the only people I ever hear espouse it look like someone dragged a Sears catalogue through a trailer park. These people aren't to be taken seriously. " I totally disagree with that statement. If you ask people who have "bigoted" opinions about different races and you ask them why they have these opinions (and you could get a truthful answer) it would eventually boil down to that very same genetic basis you defined "racism" as having. Even if it's someone's uncle Louie, if they sat down and got him to explain his bigotry it would end in a supremacy issue. As heypartner said, bigotry is just a subclass of racism.
actually DREAMer, racism is a subclass of bigotry. BIGOTRY--> examples: racism sexism etc. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
KG, yeah I get what you saying. I love semantics too. Let me take one more stab it. This time, let me interject some linguistics of my own...namely Functional Linguistics. Words like racism are owned by the culture, not semantics. Maybe once it referred only to supremacy beliefs, but in today's world, the word is learned early in life along with prejudice. Bigotry takes a distance third to those two in functional use. Language, you must agree, is for us to use to primarily communicate needs and feelings/emotions. Fear of others is indeed cultivated in this country by the family and then the culture at large. Early on, I might add. That feeling, which leads to attitudes and later beliefs, must come out in language. Racism and prejudice are used to describe this before bigotry in my experience. Once people attach a word to their feelings and belief, George Carlin can only make us laugh at their so called misuse, but they can't dislodge it from our feelings. People who say we are misusing a word that we have attached to feelings and experience early in life are stiffling the natural use of language. Semantics is doing a diservice, in my opinion, if it is saying people learned the wrong word and their feelings really are something else (in this case bigotry vs racism). oh...did I say I hate all Utah Fans, just because!!
Achebe, Yeah, while at work today I thought of that, but alas didn't have access to edit it. But, racial bigotry IS racism.
No, racial bigotry is racism only if we use the current and in my opinion incorrect definition of racism. Racism's primary definition is ...the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Its secondary definition is Discrimination or prejudice based on race. There's a reason why that's the secondary definition; because it's not precisely what the word means. Look, this is going to have to be an agree-to-disagree situation. In my opinion, you can be a bigot without being a racist. I f Earl hates them damn negroes for playing that damn rap garbage so loud, that doesn't mean Earl thinks he's genetically superior to black people. It means he's an idiot. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
