and to be fair, obviously not all asian kids in h.s. here are immigrants or even second generation. just saying there is an immigrant culture that I think exists among asians in this country as opposed to there being a black culture in this country that has developed over time that sorely needs to be changed in regards to emphasizing education. but both cultures have been bore out of different situations. its easy to sit here and say that the culture needs to be changed, but its not gonna be easily done.
Yeah, I had good parents so I went to college, grad school, and have turned out well...but that doesn't change the fact that I basically did not have (at my majority black and hispanic high school) chemistry, geometry, sophomore English (and a few more to a lesser degree) even thought my transcript said I took IB/honors for all of them. It also doesn't change the fact that I was sometimes penalized for doing too well such that even after I was gone I heard about teachers/administrators (some I had never met) "hating" me. So if I hadn't had parents at home who were smart and educated I could certainly see how it would have been hard to do well. And it did suck when I had to take chemistry in college. Everyone else had at least heard of various things in class or had seen a lab. The problem is in the schools. The problems at home are a direct relation to the problems in the schools from generations before - resulting in bad parents and uneducated environments. You can't improve one without the other.
I agree that there is no conspiracy. Sadly there doesn't have to be. All there has to be is ignorance. For instance Limon in Spanish can be translated to be lemon, or lime. So on a standardized test students are asked to compare and contrast lemons and limes. Without there being a conspiracy the hispanic student are at a disadvantage. A reading comprehension story might be about a bike ride, or flying a kite. In some neighborhoods it isn't safe for children to play outside, and they sometimes can't afford bikes. It is more difficult for those children to describe those activities. Some of the students don't even know what kites are. It isn't because they are dumb, or aren't trying in school. It is because they have different cultural experiences. Other questions ask third graders about what genre of literature Rapunzel is. Some of the children in my class who came here recently from Mexico, or Guatemala, or the Philippines don't aren't familiar with that tale. Again it isn't because they aren't smart or aren't putting enough into their schooling. Those are examples from standardized tests, and teachers who don't think about the needs of their students use similarly culturally biased materials all the time. It would be possible to test the same knowledge, just using different questions. Then of course you will have some students that fall into the domino effect of not succeeding because of those types of questions early on in elementary destroying their confidence, and how they value school or their education etc. As a teacher when you know those things are going to hamper the students you pre-teach concepts, and try and get them as familiar as possible with those things, but that takes time from the day, and means that some other concept isn't covered as deeply as it should be. As much as we all wish it was a case, of students get out what they put in, there are varying degrees to which that is possible. Sadly I see that kind of thing
Maybe if you went to a public school now you'd realize that the history taught today isn't really that Euro-centric. It's more like anti-Euro. Either way, it's a cop-out. "I'm not learning because they're teaching me about old white people instead of old black/hispanic people." No. You're not learning because you don't want to. You get out of ANYTHING as much as you put into it.
I agree with some of what you say and you have a little more knowledge about some of these issues being a teacher. However, I never really bought the cultural bias argument because so many of my friends that did really well in school came to the United States from other countries (Taiwan, Philippines, Iran, Nigeria to name just a few). They had even MORE of a cultural bias to overcome and did much better than some American students (white, black, brown, purple). The main reason was because they understood, either through parental teaching or personal thought, the importance of education.
Cultural bias doesn't mean people can't succeed. It means that they don't have an equal chance to succeed. Success can still happen, and I see successes everyday, in the classroom. But I also know that there could be more, and even those that do succeed could be exposed to more subjects in more depth except for the cultural bias. I also don't believe it is the number one reason why some people don't do well. But it is a reason for some folks. I agree that home life and family attitude toward education is a bigger indicator. But again students who's families work multiple jobs, and don't really get to rely on their parents to instill that have additional problems. But many of them end up with success as well. It isn't like success isn't possible, but the playing field isn't always level. It is also not best to look at it as because person 'x' made it, then person 'y' should be able to make it too. Everybody has different obstacles, or things like that to help them. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying success isn't possible, or that culture is the number one thing preventing success. There are more important factors. It is just that I believe that a more level playing field would benefit us all.
I want to see some statistics on percentage of entry level professional who are asian in the US coporation, then the percentage of mid management, senior management and ultimately boards, CEO, COO etc.
What's your hypothesis? It's been my experience that there aren't that many Asians in leadership positions outside of the technology field. I haven't seen any detailed studies on it, though. Not that this has anything to do with the thread...
An important point to raise - I've read that in the US korean kids are more likely than other ethnicities to become superstar achievers in schools, yet in Japan, where Koreans they are looked upon as lowly gaijin by most Japanese, due to the inherent biases/insularity of Japanese society, they're more likely to become yakuza and dropouts, etc than most Japanese kids. Obviously, US Koreans aren't any smarter than Japanese Koreans - but a culture of oppression goes a long way.
what do you mean by immigrant culture? both of my parents are immigrants and came to the u.s. in their early youth. however, i was born here and i consider myself nothing close to an immigrant, but a full fledged american. the reason why i succeeded in school was because my parents pushed me and instilled in my the value of an education. they drilled into me that the key to have a successful life is education. i believe that the root of the problem in the american education system is due to parents not pushing their children-not culture. i have several friends whose parents are also immigrants, but since they never pushed their kids, i see my friends not taking school seriously and ending up as bums. the majority of asians in the work force currently are immigrants. since they are immigrants, they do not know english well and struggle in fields such as businesses, which is a reason why many of them pursue technical fields. plus, it's difficult for minorities to climb the corporate ladder in predominantly white-run u.s. corporations/businesses.
Looking at the SamFisher's quote above, I think that the days of overt racism or the white man keeping minorities down are behind us. However, I think the argument that halfbreed brought up and others that Asians and Nigerians are a proof that there isn't something wrong with the society here isn't looking broad enough. Asian in the U.S. corporate doesn't advance much despite making up a very large protion of the lower ranked positions is for the most part not due to race, but rather a more humble, quiet, and submissive cultural way of doing things ("the nail that sticks out gets hammered down") doesn't necessarily work that well within the US corporate culture. It doesn't mean it impossible for Asians to attain in leadership positions in companies, I think a lot do, especially for those that are both capable at their work and can adapt culturally to the American (pre-dominatly white) culture. However, for the majority, its going to be hard to adapt to the American (pre-dominatly white) culture. Once again, I think has nothing to do with race, but rather fitting the system better (and for those working in the U.S., it is their responsibility to adapt). I'll say again, I don't think its a race issue but a culture issue, and I think our educational culture isn't a good fit for poorer African Americans. When most those of that you see being successful are sports stars, rappers, etc and you see very few people coming from your background getting a typical white collar job, that will shift your views. When you are from a certain surroundings and expecation or view of what is against you, it will shift your views. Some can rise above some of the cultural bondage of being African Americans (some perpetuated within the African American society: 'we gots to front') will succeed, but to act like we all start on equal footing, or even similiar footing is a view I think that is quite un aware.
I agree. The business sector heavily relies on social networking. People generally assume merit is the prime factor for success, but what seperates you from the competition is who you know. Perhaps Asians outside the tech sector are having difficulties with that factor. The same applies with school. Who you know and who you're with determines your attitudes and perceptions of the system. A bright guy in the wrong crowd might not be motivated to do bright things or long term planning. If the crowd's outlook is bleak it suppresses future thought. Teachers are wells of opportunity. Unfortunately because they also play dual roles as enforcer, they're not easily approachable. In that light, yes, oppression does play a factor in low student morale. Non-conformists would be vigorously attacked as "selling out" or acting another race. But there is a balance to how much blame can be placed on that. The other end is that a lot of people assume that learning stops at school. Teachers fear complaints and overburdening their students, so homework is diluted. The attitude or "culture" of success is that work doesn't stop at work and learning never stops. Elite prep schools and universities try to instill that in a brief four year period, but it's a habit that needs to be learned much earlier and enforced much longer.
That's a silly statement. The bias in this country towards American born blacks is far more consequential and damaging than any bias towards Nigerian born blacks. You guys and your model minority hypotheses... I swear. You would have everyone believe that the reason Asians are on par with whites economically and educationally is because they don't blame whitey for their problems and just work harder than everyone else. Perhaps it's more complicated than that. Perhaps Asian immigrants to the US come from countries with much stronger economies than the nations from which latino immigrants come from. I'm betting the GDP numbers for Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. are just a bit higher than Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc. Just by virtue of logistics, it follows that an Asian immigrant has to be more affluent than a latino immigrant just to be able to come to the United States. Furthermore, with respect to African-Americans, Asians have their own cultures in this country unaffected by slavery. This is a critical distinction when making these comparisons. It's astounding that in 2006 we still have people bumbling over why x, y, and z are the case with respect to race in this country.
The vast majority of Asian immigrants into this country are Chinese, Indian, Philipino, and Vietnamese. Not from "Japan, South Korean, or Taiwan." Those countries have worse GDP per capita numbers than Mexico.
And yet those that do come, generally are more educated and wealthy than those from mexico. It's a lot harder to sneak into the US when an ocean is in your way and consequently economics becomes an issue. Paying for a plane ticket, immigration papers, etc.. all cost money and thus exclude the poorest and most uneducated. Mexico doesn't have that barrier.
