But you're supporting non-tier-1 Black schools to continue as well. And in those non-tier-1 schools, does that mean that the rest of the school population who aren't in those certain strong programs are "foolish" in your opinion? Cost, location, and family are strong considerations for taking those Universities, as you have noted. But race?... Hmm why should White, Asian, or Hispanic students attend a black college when the offerings and opportunities doesn't "mesh well" for them? If I want to be with "my people" what does a Black university have to offer for me? This "seperate but equal" thing is working out quite nicely... As long as it is the Black universities' "added advantage", it will be the remaining colleges' disadvantage. Dare I say it? Is this one trump card for Affirmative Action proponents? The feeling that Blacks need not apply to "white schools" for fear of inherent racist admissions policies, AND especially when there are Black schools to fall back upon? Again, look at the Asian and Indian demographic. They have no ethnic campuses to participate in. There is also no stigma of victimization for them as it has been historically for Blacks, but a diverse environment would attempt to bridge it instead of promoting it.
I must point this out. Icehouse, in his posts, has underscored exactly what is wrong with this country...and it has nothing to do with race (well, race is a problem, I just mean in this specific example...you know what I mean, leave me alone!). Over and over the talk is only about getting a job in the end, being recruited, etc. College and universities acting as vocational training has limited our students of all races, dulled our thinking, and perpetuated faulty priorities. My contempt boils over. In many ways the elite black colleges are the same as the elite white ones (and, yes, they are white) in their "club" type nature. They also, unfortunately, often duplicate the very white practice of elitism, racism, etc. in regards to blacks (haha - didn't see that coming, did you?).
I just started this thread to raise your ire in a University vs College discussion rimbaud. Where have you been. ps, this thread is an interesting read w/ the various perspectives and constructive interation. ps2, rimbaud, there's no such thing as a white school. There's only a structure that permits greatness. If you run around w/ a sock on your pecker and sing Tiny Bubbles, you'll see what I mean. If you do so in front of a bunch of NAS members or what have you, as I've been able to do at the University of Utah, you'll be all the better for it.
Black colleges offer us (Blacks) the same life lessons and bonding experiences that the major (White) universities offers whites. Bottom line. When I left high school most of my classmates were just as concerned about fraternities, campus life, and watering holes as they were about obtaining that piece of paper (a degree). Maybe alot has changed in ten+ years but a 17 year old leaving home for the first time is still a 17 year old leaving home for the first time IMO. These kids want to have their cake and eat it too. And to those of you suggesting that these "poor" black schools shut their doors, we'd handle it just fine. More history and culture lost. No biggie. We as a people have seen that before (ouch). But better yet let's close those "poor" previously-segregated schools and force those students to attend the TSUs and PVs of the world, thereby cultivating this new breed of harmony that you see as lacking in today's society. Only now We won't have to carry the burden of making the sacrifice of trying to blend into a different culture that, on some levels, rather us not be there. You will.
Originally posted by bigtexxx See in the good ole' USA, if your skin is a certain color, you can be hired even if you are not nearly as qualified as another person of a different color. ... Is it fair? Not in my opinion. I believe that the answer provided by bnb addresses this comment, and I agree with his/her point. The only point that I will add is that you are assuming students from these schools are not qualified, when in fact they are (most of them...no school has 100% of qualified students). Originally posted by Sir Jackie Chiles I know how it works . It was a rhetorical question. I would like to see Icehouse try to justify it . I can't justify hiring unqualified students based on race OR SEX, and I don't agree with it. But once again, qualified black students do attend black colleges. Originally posted by bigtexxx I am 100% in favor of a qualified, diverse workforce. I am not in favor of the unqualified personnel I have had to work with in the past. I agree. Never did I say unqualified students should be hired. It sucks that your company hires unqualified students (even if they are from black schools ). Mine doesn’t though. What kind of place do you work for, because my firm would not be able to function with unqualified accountants. Originally posted by Invisible Fan But you're supporting non-tier-1 Black schools to continue as well. Yes, if these non tier-1 schools have quality programs that companies recruit from. There are plenty of white schools that are not tier-1, but they are still good schools for certain majors or certain students (like those who want to stay close to home, save money, etc.). Originally posted by Invisible Fan And in those non-tier-1 schools, does that mean that the rest of the school population who aren't in those certain strong programs are "foolish" in your opinion? No, they might have different reasons for attending the schools (like cost, location, parents old school, etc.). Originally posted by Invisible Fan Cost, location, and family are strong considerations for taking those Universities, as you have noted. But race?... Yes race and comfort level. Believe it or not, but some students like not being the only student of their race in classes, where their opinion represents the opinion for the entire race, where they are easily noticed because of their skin color no matter if they succeed or fail, etc. At Morehouse I did not stick out. I did at Tech and UT because I was usually the only black person in the class. Kind of hard to miss me ya know. Originally posted by Invisible Fan Hmm why should White, Asian, or Hispanic students attend a black college when the offerings and opportunities doesn't "mesh well" for them? If I want to be with "my people" what does a Black university have to offer for me? This "seperate but equal" thing is working out quite nicely... As long as they major in a program where they will get exposure (where companies come to recruit), they will have the same offerings and opportunities as any other school except for one, and that's being around others like them/their culture. That one exception is what most black students face when they attend white schools. So I pose your own question back to you...just reverse the races. The black school offers you a chance to get a good education/job in whatever field they are strong in (hint, hint.....the same things that white schools offer to black students). The black school gives you a chance to experience black culture on an everyday basis (not read about it). As a black student, I don't have to go to a white school to experience the dominant culture in America. All I have to do is walk outside or turn on my TV. The only times that I get to experience what I had at Morehouse (just being in an environment like UT, with nothing but black people….being around beautiful black women all day long, etc.) is when I go back to visit. As far as black colleges catering to the cultural needs of white students (the college, not a student led organization), they don't. I can admit that. I never said black schools are holier than white ones and the administrations there compromise for others when white schools don't. Both types of schools have a long way to go when it comes to catering to the non-majority portion of their student body. And once again, a racist white student attended Morehouse to learn about blacks so he could unlearn all the racist bs that he was taught by his parents. I would say the school offered him something besides his education, and we all respected the hell out of him for what he did. Originally posted by Invisible Fan As long as it is the Black universities' "added advantage", it will be the remaining colleges' disadvantage. I can agree with that. However, to give that advantage to white colleges would mean the black ones would cease to exist, and we love/are proud of our schools too. Our schools are still improving the lives of their students. There is no need for them to shut down besides improving white schools by funneling more black students there. Kind of selfish don't ya think? Originally posted by Invisible Fan Dare I say it? Is this one trump card for Affirmative Action proponents? The feeling that Blacks need not apply to "white schools" for fear of inherent racist admissions policies, AND especially when there are Black schools to fall back upon? Well, Affirmative Action involves all minorities (including women). And as far as falling back on black schools, it's much harder to get into Morehouse and Spelman (both private schools) than it is to get into UT, Tech or A&M. Originally posted by Invisible Fan Again, look at the Asian and Indian demographic. They have no ethnic campuses to participate in. There is also no stigma of victimization for them as it has been historically for Blacks, but a diverse environment would attempt to bridge it instead of promoting it. They sure don't. But as you mentioned, the conditions are different. Yes, promoting a diverse environment is good, but why must it always involve blacks switching over? Once again, if you want to create this perfect society than white students are more than welcome to apply and attend black schools. They can get scholarships to go, and they won't limit their opportunities after graduation. Black students do go to white universities, and I'm pretty sure the % of black students applying to white schools is larger than the % of white students trying to go to black ones. Originally posted by rimbaud Over and over the talk is only about getting a job in the end, being recruited, etc. College and universities acting as vocational training has limited our students of all races, dulled our thinking, and perpetuated faulty priorities. My contempt boils over. I agree. A lot of times students take the easier classes, to make the good grades, to have the high GPA, to get a better job, instead of taking challenging courses that would really teach them something new. I admit to doing this at times when I was in school, and I'm sure most of you have as well. However, your comment helps to stress how important culture and other influences outside of the classroom are to a student. I feel like my classroom time at Morehouse and UT helped me become a good accountant. The activities that I was involved in at the schools were what made me become a good man though, and there were certain activities/groups available to me at Morehouse that were not available at UT or Tech because I was at a black school. Originally posted by rimbaud In many ways the elite black colleges are the same as the elite white ones (and, yes, they are white) in their "club" type nature. They also, unfortunately, often duplicate the very white practice of elitism, racism, etc. in regards to blacks (haha - didn't see that coming, did you?). I agree 100%. I don't think this elitism is a white practice though. I just think its human nature. As far as the elitist feeling among black colleges is concerned, I think it lies in the roots of the early schools histories. Originally, only blacks with money (or light skinned blacks in some cases) could attend what we now consider the top tier black colleges (like Spelman, Howard and Morehouse). I mean, anyone who could get in could attend, but the majority of the student body was made up of the wealthy because these schools were private, and expensive. Most of the students were "rich kids" (back then black teachers, doctors, etc were considered well off to the black community). Blacks with less money would send their kids to state schools like Grambling, Southern and PV. After Vietnam blacks could get G.I. bills to attend college. Uncle Sam also instituted the student loan program. Corporate America tried harder to diversify, so more scholarships were created for us to go to college (UNCF, and the like). Ultimately, poor kids from 3rd ward (like me ) could obtain money to go to these "elite" black schools. Even today though, a good portion of the Morehouse body is composed of rich kids (the cost to attend is around $12-$15 K a year). I wouldn't say it's the school with the elitist attitude, but some of the a-holes individuals that go there instead. Sure, there are some a-holes from UT or A&M that look down on every other school in the state, but that's just because they are a-holes, not because of UT or A&M. Originally posted by dwil8686 Black colleges offer us (Blacks) the same life lessons and bonding experiences that the major (White) universities offers whites. Bottom line. When I left high school most of my classmates were just as concerned about fraternities, campus life, and watering holes as they were about obtaining that piece of paper (a degree). Maybe alot has changed in ten+ years but a 17 year old leaving home for the first time is still a 17 year old leaving home for the first time IMO. These kids want to have their cake and eat it too. And to those of you suggesting that these "poor" black schools shut their doors, we'd handle it just fine. More history and culture lost. No biggie. We as a people have seen that before (ouch). But better yet let's close those "poor" previously-segregated schools and force those students to attend the TSUs and PVs of the world, thereby cultivating this new breed of harmony that you see as lacking in today's society. Only now We won't have to carry the burden of making the sacrifice of trying to blend into a different culture that, on some levels, rather us not be there. You will. Both very quality points.
Both very quality points. Icehouse, I've learned a lot by reading this thread. It's rare to find a topic that stays on track this long with racial arguments that doesn't resort to insults and people being labeled racists. Thanks to all. And sorry bout that run-on sentence
Originally posted by Icehouse You are basing your judgment of "school quality" on rankings and what magazines say. I am basing mine on the chances you have to get a job once you graduate. I would rather have the latter. Read on. I don't really see how someone going to an inferior school has the same opportunities to get x level jobs. I mean you can break it down into fields and say x black college excels in this field so companies go to this college but also there are x regular colleges that excel in that same field so black students at that school are again just as likely to get jobs. The only way this scenario works at all is if a particular state has so few colleges that a student selects an inferior school because it's so much better in a certain field than the other schools. And all of this relies on a student knowing what he'll major in prior to attending a college and actually following through on it which I don't know if there are any statistics on but I'd bet it's not a high percentage particularly when talking about lower level schools. What is your ultimate objective for college? To graduate and get a job. I don't care what US World has my school ranked if all the big companies in my field come there to recruit. THAT'S THE ONLY RANKING THAT MATTERS!!!! Texas Tech is much higher ranked than some black schools, but ultimately most companies do not go to Tech to recruit in some fields (like Accounting). How does this keep going over your head? It's not going over my head, it's just not as important as you're making it out to be. You really think x student picks y school on the basis that maybe in 4 years z recruiter will be there to give him a job? Or is it more likely that x student picks y school on the basis that not only the school but the alumni is of such quality that having access can mean a great deal to your future opportunities? I think your argument is better suited to people getting graduate degrees. I'm on this tangent because that FACT disproves your theory about the student limiting himself and receiving a inferior education. If my chances of getting a job at the black school are just as good as getting one at the white one (because all the companies come there just to find black employees in that field) then how am I limiting myself? These companies would not recruit there if they thought the candidates were receiving an inferior education. If that were the case, all accounting students in Texas would be from UT's program, which is ranked #1. That is not the case however. It's not your chances of getting A job, it's your chances of getting the same quality of opportunities, to network. The network and wealth of A&M and UT alumni is on a much larger scale than that of TSU and PV. You said earlier the ultimate objective of college was to get a job but I'd say it's to get the best job possible to take care of yourself, to own a home, and start a family. I'm not even sure that really is the objective at all but following your train of thought it's not just to get a job. My point was that a black student majoring in engineering can go to PV, and know that they can get the same job that they could have had coming out of A&M because the same company will be recruiting there, SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR BLACK STUDENTS. Being in a more comfortable environment is an added advantage. That's how the system works.....IT IS A FACT. If you have a problem with how the system works then that's an entirely different discussion. Of course I have a problem with how the system works, that's why we're having this discussion. When I did my exchange program at Tech, I didn’t even see another black accounting student!! That's the problem man. It has to change. Yet, black schools that specialize in certain fields aren't beneficial? You just said that each black student at UT in your graduating class got a job. Wouldn't it be logical to say that if all of the HBCU's graduates in your company were in that same UT class that they'd also have jobs? No, students pick the schools because they can get the same opportunities (education wise and the ability to get a job) at a black school. They're not getting the same opportunities. Who said anything about students just saying...oh, I want to go there just cause the school is black? I'm sure that happens, and I agree that would be foolish...just as foolish as someone saying...hey, I'm going to this school because it's down the street from my house. No, I think you'd find most people wouldn't consider that to be the same thing. You still keep missing the point that these black schools are still sound when it comes to educating their student body and preparing them for jobs once they graduate. Isn’t that what matters overall? No, it's not what matters overall. What matters overall is that the key to equity for minorities in this country starts with education and by segregating yourself from other races you are hurting yourself and preventing the majority from certain interaction that's an education in itself which ultimately serves the goals of the minority (tolerance, acceptance, opporunity, understanding). At some point we have to realize that the status quo is not working and we have to make changes and it all starts right here at ground zero, education. How do you figure that the only basis is skin color. Skin color is an added advantage, meaning I can get to the same point coming out of Morehouse then I could coming out if UT, so I will choose to go to Morehouse because I have the ADDED ADVANTAGE of being around other black people (along with other advantages, but that’s a different discussion as well). Having an appropriate representation of minorities is an advantage that perhaps would exist at UT if TSU and PV weren't around. So should all the students at Sam and SWT go to UT as well, since their program is ranked higher? If your ideal situation happened, what schools would then be located in and be able to serve the black community? All of these variables are important. The same schools that serve every other community. well, what prominent alumni do you have, the rich black guy I know about went to a white school" comment. I think Robert Johnson being the richest black man in American history is just a little better example than you're giving me credit for here. Like I said previously, the networking list I provided just from my school (and we were discussing networking opportunities) looks pretty good to me, compared against ANY school. This is not true, it's simple math. Even assuming that TSU is as quality an institution as UT, considering there are 4/5 times as many students at UT the network is larger and the network of distinguised alumni is larger. When you drop the equal consideration to both schools then the disproportion of quality networking opportunities becomes even larger. The founders (blacks and whites with $$$) were not racist at all. They created the schools so blacks could learn when the white schools would not allow them to. I was talking about legislators. A little TSU history. The impetus for the acquisition of Houston College for Negroes by the state was the law suit filed by Heman M. Sweattqv in an effort to desegregate the law school at the University of Texas. The Sweatt challenge grew out of a decision of the Texas State Conference of the NAACP in 1945 to target segregation in higher education. When it became clear that Sweatt had a good chance to win his case because the State of Texas had not provided a law school or a full service university for blacks, the legislature attempted to perpetuate the dual system of education by forming a law school and a university for blacks. This was the motivation for the decision of the legislature to appropriate $2,000,000 in 1947 to acquire the campus of the Houston College for Negroes and to establish Texas State University for Negroes. Ironically, it was not the intention, or even the desire of the black community in Houston to acquire a black university; their objective in the late 1940s was to end segregation. The establishment of Texas State University for Negroes was, then, viewed by many blacks as a mixed blessing, one that perhaps would undermine their struggle for equality. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/TT/kct27.html Hmm, so it's okay for the blacks to go to other schools to further society, but it can't work the other way around? That's odd. There are more Hispanics than African-Americans in Texas. You want to come my school to learn my culture or maybe we just meet at the same schools and learn that way? Big difference between learning about African-American history and learning (being involved) in its culture. All schools teach a black history class. All schools teach Spanish. I can learn about either subject by picking up a book. However, I will not master the language (in most cases) until I put myself in an environment where it is used on a continual basis. You won't really understand a group’s culture unless you are around it. If you can't rationalize that then I can't help ya. All the more reason why African-Americans should be appropriately represented at regular schools. Have you also noticed that you keep comparing PV and TSU to UT and A&M, the two top schools in the state (not counting Rice)? From your perspective, a student should pick A&M over PV. I'm assuming you also think the same student should pick A&M over Sam, Tech, SWT, etc. (if not then you are being a bit hypocritical). Your rationalization is disregarding a few key points though. They're the two best black schools in the state and I'm comparing them to the best, in your words, white schools in the state. Nothing wrong with that is there? Or are you finally ready to admit that TSU and PV deserve no more consideration than SWT, or Sam which is all the more strange to see the tremendous lack of black students at Sam, SWT, SFA, or wherever. Black students aren't exactly comparing those on equal footing are they? That's part of the whole point here.
That's an interesting notion but not so practical. Closing the poorest performing HBCU's would mean losing history but I think we'd all be gaining it as well by how the curriculum would eventually be changed by demand at regular colleges.
Why is your idea more practical? I'm saying the same thing just reversing the schools. Let's shut down SWT and other lower performing former-segregated schools. The student body and/or faculty would then be somewhat forced to attend or apply for jobs at the likes of TSU or PV. The curriculum would not have to change nearly as much this way (see, we do learn things other than Afrocentricity 101 ) and we'd begin to see more balance in the cross-training of cultures. I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way or that I offend anyone (that's truly not my intention) but I feel that I understand white culture more than whites understand my culture. Maybe it's because I've been taught more of that culture than they have of mine. Still, why are you proposing for me, if I choose to further my education, to be forced to be a case study and help broaden your horizon as opposed to you coming to the source and doing it yourself?
I was...uh, doin' stuff. Am I that transparent? I went to a very white undergraduate school...also quite racist. It made me uncomfortable being around all of those whiteys. Certainly not comfortable enough to expose my skills and my business. And, of course, I would never do *anything* at the U of U. dwil, I don't understand your point in relation to mine - you argue issues that I did not address (at least, I don't think). Icehouse, You misunderstand my first point a bit - it has nothing to do with taking easier classes (well, maybe a little), it has to do with using a college/university incorrectly...and said college/university now being run oncorrectly. They now have so little to do with real education that it is sad...and you have reinforced that through your posts. Nothing personal, you are in the majority...just raising my problems with the system. Second, I wasn't saying that it was Morehouse, etc. that was creating the elitism fully, so I agree with you. That is why I mentioned the "club" aspect...that the people perpetuate. Elitism is not a white thing, true, but don't you think it is interesting that an oppressed group, when given certain "power" resorts to the same guidelines and methods as their opressor, as if that is all that there is. I am sure you know, since you know your history, that the early elite schools were based on white standards of culture...light skinned, straight-haired....whatever. Only in recent history was that really challenged but, of course, white standards still often dictate black life.
Actually..there WERE is what you should have said. You act like still a problem for a black student to get into Univ Tex, Univ Md, Harvard, etc etc etc. Bad answer. Its funny how when you talk of the number of black students there are at a particular university in comparison to a black school you exaggerate terribly. When you refer to the 3000 black students versus the 20 or so elsewhere, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You use practically the entire student body as an example when you talk of the number of blacks at a black school but you use a number like 20 when talking about how many blacks there are to associate with at another university. Guess what? You could probably find 20 blacks in the bookstore at any given time at other universities...never mind the 5-10 thousand around the rest of the campus. I think getting good grades has a lot more to do with the individual student's commitments and goals rather than a comfort level. The comfort level is usually established during the application process..The reason that I (and probably most others that went to college) went to visit different schools when applying, is to see if we would feel comfortable should we get accepted. We walked around the campus, maybe ate in the student union's cafeteria etc. If I didnt feel comfortable, I wouldn't bother applying. You probably never even considered looking into anything but a black school so my guess is that you don't comprehend this particular point. you have no point...you have an opinion
Well in Texas specifically there are far more regular lower tier schools than black lower tier schools plus TSU/PV are pretty close to each other. Much easier to close two schools in proximity and funnel them to schools around the state than to close schools all around the state and funnel them to the Houston area. Also, you don't want to funnel twenty or whatever schools into two, it's easier to to funnel two into twenty. Plus, if you only closed one or two like SWT and Sam it's much more likey that those students would just go to other "white" schools.
dwil, I don't understand your point in relation to mine - you argue issues that I did not address (at least, I don't think). You are correct sir. My apologies.
Originally posted by Timing I don't really see how someone going to an inferior school has the same opportunities to get x level jobs. Well, have you ever been involved in recruiting? Fact is these top firms go to these schools to recruit, mine included. It's your choice to not believe me, but I have a hunch you have no idea which companies go to PV or TSU to hire students. Originally posted by Timing You really think x student picks y school on the basis that maybe in 4 years z recruiter will be there to give him a job? Yes, I know quite a few individuals that choose schools based on the exposure the schools receives from recruiters. I'm pretty sure others on this board know individuals like that as well. Whether they will admit it or not is another story. Originally posted by Timing Or is it more likely that x student picks y school on the basis that not only the school but the alumni is of such quality that having access can mean a great deal to your future opportunities? I think your argument is better suited to people getting graduate degrees. Students pick schools based on alumni as well. I agree, more graduate students pick schools based on job potential, but that dosen't mean undergrad students don't do it as well. Originally posted by Timing It's not your chances of getting A job, it's your chances of getting the same quality of opportunities, to network. The network and wealth of A&M and UT alumni is on a much larger scale than that of TSU and PV. True, but the networking opportunities of Sam or SWT are not. Also, A&M and UT's network loses some luster once we start to venture away from TX. The network a student gains from attending a black college typically extends to ALL black colleges. Originally posted by Timing You said earlier the ultimate objective of college was to get a job but I'd say it's to get the best job possible to take care of yourself, to own a home, and start a family. I'm not even sure that really is the objective at all but following your train of thought it's not just to get a job. The ultimate objective, but not the only one. I also believe I said things about being around your culture (important to some), learning outside the classroom, etc. And by the way, all that happy stuff is hard to do without a job. Originally posted by Timing That's the problem man. It has to change. So eliminating black schools is the answer? Originally posted by Timing You just said that each black student at UT in your graduating class got a job. Wouldn't it be logical to say that if all of the HBCU's graduates in your company were in that same UT class that they'd also have jobs? Yes they would. UT has the #1 accounting program. Schools like SWT and Tech do not. We don't have very many accountants from either one of those schools. And if those black students went to UT, then they would have missed out on some of the unique things that black schools have to offer. Originally posted by Timing They're not getting the same opportunities. They are getting a quality education. They are getting good jobs. They might not gain as big of a network (using a PV, UT comparison), but they might (using a PV, SWT comparison). However, they do gain other things that the white school can not provide. It's the students choice to decide which is worth more to them. Originally posted by Timing No, I think you'd find most people wouldn't consider that to be the same thing. I disagree. Both are decisions that have nothing to do with the education that you can receive at the school. Both decisions are based on personal preferences alone. Originally posted by Timing No, it's not what matters overall. What matters overall is that the key to equity for minorities in this country starts with education and by segregating yourself from other races you are hurting yourself and preventing the majority from certain interaction that's an education in itself which ultimately serves the goals of the minority (tolerance, acceptance, opporunity, understanding). At some point we have to realize that the status quo is not working and we have to make changes and it all starts right here at ground zero, education. How am I hurting myself when I am still attending a quality school that educates me and allows me to earn a job? I did not miss any interaction with white society (or the majority) by going to a black school. I'm in America ya know. So now it is my responsibility to sacrifice my schools and my history for the majorities benefit? Read dwil8686's posts. They offer some good points on this. And if you are really concerned with educating everyone equally, try starting with kids when they are young. That's when it matters the most. Originally posted by Timing Having an appropriate representation of minorities is an advantage that perhaps would exist at UT if TSU and PV weren't around. I agree. So once again, we should be the ones to sacrifice to beneit everyone else? Originally posted by Timing The same schools that serve every other community. But the schools don't serve the black community. Originally posted by Timing I think Robert Johnson being the richest black man in American history is just a little better example than you're giving me credit for here. I never said Robert Johnson was not a prominent black man. Never said I didn't wish I knew him. But there are plenty of successful, accomplished and well respected alumni of black colleges, and I htink my short list proved that. Originally posted by Timing This is not true, it's simple math. Even assuming that TSU is as quality an institution as UT, considering there are 4/5 times as many students at UT the network is larger and the network of distinguised alumni is larger. When you drop the equal consideration to both schools then the disproportion of quality networking opportunities becomes even larger. Dosen't UT have 4/5 times as many students as SWT or Sam? Last time I checked they were the biggest school in the country (at least when I was there). So all students should just go to UT? Originally posted by Timing I was talking about legislators. A little TSU history. Good example on how the state founded TSU's law school. Now can you tell me who founded TSU and PV? I'm positive the situations are not the same. Originally posted by Timing There are more Hispanics than African-Americans in Texas. You want to come my school to learn my culture or maybe we just meet at the same schools and learn that way? Is there a historically hispanic college or university? Originally posted by Timing All the more reason why African-Americans should be appropriately represented at regular schools. I agree, but closing down black schools so students who choose to attend them will be forced to attend white ones is not the answer. I believe the more options a student has, the better. Originally posted by Timing They're the two best black schools in the state and I'm comparing them to the best, in your words, white schools in the state. Nothing wrong with that is there? Or are you finally ready to admit that TSU and PV deserve no more consideration than SWT, or Sam which is all the more strange to see the tremendous lack of black students at Sam, SWT, SFA, or wherever. Black students aren't exactly comparing those on equal footing are they? That's part of the whole point here. How do they not deserve more consideration when top companies are coming to PV and TSU to recruit (for certain fields) and not goint to SWT or Sam? And I believe the % of black students Sam, SFA and SWT is higher than the % at UT or A&M. Originally posted by Timing Closing the poorest performing HBCU's would mean losing history but I think we'd all be gaining it as well by how the curriculum would eventually be changed by demand at regular colleges. LOL. So we should lose our history so the majority can gain? Wouldn't it make more sense for those curious majority students to go to a black school and gain? Originally posted by dwil8686 I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way or that I offend anyone (that's truly not my intention) but I feel that I understand white culture more than whites understand my culture. Maybe it's because I've been taught more of that culture than they have of mine. Still, why are you proposing for me, if I choose to further my education, to be forced to be a case study and help broaden your horizon as opposed to you coming to the source and doing it yourself? Very good point...oops, I mean opinion. Any takers? Originally posted by rimbaud Only in recent history was that really challenged but, of course, white standards still often dictate black life. I agree. I think white standards dictate life for a lot of races/cultures (majority in America which is the worlds dominant country). Originally posted by NJRocket Actually..there WERE is what you should have said. You act like still a problem for a black student to get into Univ Tex, Univ Md, Harvard, etc etc etc. Bad answer. Hmm, read the entire post/paragraph. Try and think about the entire message. Don't pick one sentence (which is being used to prove a point or opinion) and attack the sentence, while ignoring the point that it is helping to prove. The point was that UT and A&M are "predominately white schools" based upon the white % of their student bodies. Is this not true. Black students make up the majority of black schools in the same manner. Is this not true. I said students of any race are free to apply and go to either one that they choose (if they qualify to get in). So I don't know how you seem to think that I'm saying blacks can't get into UT or A&M. Bad analysis. Originally posted by NJRocket Its funny how when you talk of the number of black students there are at a particular university in comparison to a black school you exaggerate terribly. When you refer to the 3000 black students versus the 20 or so elsewhere, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You use practically the entire student body as an example when you talk of the number of blacks at a black school but you use a number like 20 when talking about how many blacks there are to associate with at another university. Guess what? You could probably find 20 blacks in the bookstore at any given time at other universities...never mind the 5-10 thousand around the rest of the campus. Once again, bad analysis. When I walk around Morehouse I see tons of black people because the majority of the students there are black. There are thousands of black students at UT, but I can't ever recall seeing more than like 20 in a day at times. i definately did not see them in my classes. If I saw a large group, it was usually at a hot spot or in the multicultural information center (meaning I had to make an effort to go to certain places to see some black people). Hey, that's just my experience though. Originally posted by NJRocket I think getting good grades has a lot more to do with the individual student's commitments and goals rather than a comfort level. The comfort level is usually established during the application process..The reason that I (and probably most others that went to college) went to visit different schools when applying, is to see if we would feel comfortable should we get accepted. We walked around the campus, maybe ate in the student union's cafeteria etc. If I didnt feel comfortable, I wouldn't bother applying. You probably never even considered looking into anything but a black school so my guess is that you don't comprehend this particular point. I agree. I never said comfort level was the most important thing about college. i said it can make a difference. Do you disagree? You don't know any students that performed poorly at a school because they were not comfortable there? Originally posted by NJRocket you have no point...you have an opinion So a point is a synonym for a fact? Sure, I have an opinion. Call it whatever you want. Your comment still backed it up. Originally posted by NJRocket Well in Texas specifically there are far more regular lower tier schools than black lower tier schools plus TSU/PV are pretty close to each other. Much easier to close two schools in proximity and funnel them to schools around the state than to close schools all around the state and funnel them to the Houston area. Also, you don't want to funnel twenty or whatever schools into two, it's easier to to funnel two into twenty. Plus, if you only closed one or two like SWT and Sam it's much more likey that those students would just go to other "white" schools. So what about the other 6 HBCU's in the state, none of which are near Houston? Or do you even know where they are?
I think I'll retire from this thread cause we're kind of going around and around on the same points. I'll just add one last thing in that I believe we should try to find a middle ground between the importance of maintaining a history and pride and trying to integrate all races to a degree that everyone can take advantage of the same quality of opportunities. Great discussion, thanks!
