And you made mine AB... I've been having a lousy day...and that clip brightened it right up...thanks...to you and SJC.. please be sure to let us know in advance when you are coming back to H-town..
R2K My day has been kinda messed up too, so here's to the day getting better! B-Bob The worse night of my career! 52,000 in the Astrodome and they all hated me! Helluva a payday though SJC Free tix? I'll tell you what, I'm going to submit what you've found to the new 'Star Search' and if I'm chosen (on the bubble now), get ready to come and see your HOUSTON ROCKETS!!!!!! Perfect timing, I can't believe you found that, whoo hoo!
You are a brave man, AB. That cracks me up! I'll keep my eyes open for you showing up around San Francisco, if that ever happens.
If you're unsure at what career you're heading towards, but choose a school that has one or two strong fields out of a sea of mediocrity, you better hope that you never consider about switching your major. I mean going to college with your best friend from high school sounds like a fun and reinforcing thing to build upon the "college experience", but you can't always perpetuate your life based on the decisions of other people and what strangers might think of you. I'm with Timing in that Black students who choose historically Black colleges on the merit of their demographics is robbing themselves plus the "White" universities of a diverse and cultural environment. Like I hinted above, the student body is not predominantly concentrated in those one or two flagship majors, and the students who aren't might have put themselves in an "inferior" academic position. Sure, the white universities might not sponsor "Black themed entertainment", but holding that stigma only perpetuates it. Is it because blacks are in the minority, and aren't doing much about it to change it? If you look at the Asian demographic, they're just moving along and putting their ethnic themes into the program because their numbers are growing and therefore their influence is too. I sense the people who choose Black universities by virtue of it being predominantly Black has held some form of victimization or a fear of it that is holding them back from fully integrating their culture into the mainstream. If you're determined on the path of your career and like the familiar aspects of a Black university, then that's fine, but not everyone has their destinies laid out in front of them. And in life, you need to increase your chances towards success in any way you can.
Game on... Originally posted by Icehouse Once again, I said those are great schools to attend if you want to pursue a career in those certain fields. I never said they were better than UT or A&M. My point was that if you want to pursue a career in those fields, you are not hurting yourself by going to those schools even if other schools are ranked higher? Why are you not hurting yourself? Because when it comes down to getting a job, those schools are where companies go to find black employees. I like how you keep dodging that point, but it's okay. Well let's stick to empirical grading instead of anecdotal it's a great school type stuff. Again according to US World, out of 185 schools rated in engineering UT is 10th and TAMU is 12th, TSU/PV not in top 50. Out of 188 schools rated in education UT is 13th and TAMU is 39th, TSU/PV not in top 50. They're not great schools according to the people that are paid to rate colleges. I don't know why you're on this tangent about companies going to HBCU's to find black employees so black kids should pick HBCU's if they want to get a job. Let's see, three black engineers with degrees from UT, A&M, and TSU. All other things being equal, which one might get picked last there? So you are telling me the only reason white students choose SWT or SFA over UT and A&M is because of cost? Being close to home has nothing to do with it? What about wanting to go to a small school as opposed to a large one. What about going to school with your best friend? What about going to the school that your parents went to? Mabye your choice came down to what college had the highest Time ranking, but some students consider those other aspects. Of course there are a lot of factors that involve a decision but we're talking about students picking a school because of, in the case of HBCU's, an overwhelming racial imbalance among the student body. This isn't present among whites, hispanics, or asians. It's probably pretty tough to listen to complaints about racial diversity in education from people like me when people like you advocate perpetual segregation in education. How can schools become diverse if students are intentionally selecting HBCU's over better schools in order to be with "their" people and the only basis for being "their" people is skin color? This situation can't continue. You still have yet to show me how the student is hurting himself. He is intentionally limiting his potential opportunities. The FACT is that when a TX engineering firm is looking for a black engineer, they will go to PV to find one. Keep dodging that point though. I'm not dodging your point, I just don't find it to be a very good point. If you took all PV engineering students and enrolled them at UT, which is a better engineering school anyway, then where would engineering firms look for a black engineer? Well, considering we live in a predominately white society, I would not expect Morehouse to have as many presidents (never been a black one, unless ya believe the Abraham Lincoln rumor), senators or CEO's as Howard or Princenton. The fact that those schools are older than Morehouse and the large disparity in school population has something to do with it as well. However, when I compare notable Morehouse Alumni to notable alumni from other schools (like A&M or UT) I feel we hold our own. Here is a brief list for you: I don't know Timing, but that looks like a pretty good and diverse network to me. This is limiting your opportunities. In fact you had to try to compare Morehouse alumni (one of the elite black colleges) to state colleges like UT and A&M instead of comparing them to the most elite of colleges like Harvard, Princeton, etc. No, black schools were built to EDUCATE blacks when they could not be educated elsewhere. That's as true as saying black only restrooms were built to allow black people to go to the bathroom when they couldn't go elsewhere. Black schools were built to segregate our society. That African-Americans embrace these HBCU's so much today is almost a strange fulfillment of goals by the racists and segragationists who created those schools in the first place. A very awkward situation. I agree. But like I said, for those students who really want to learn about black culture, they are more than welcome to attend an HBCU. You see, that's the problem. Whites, Hispanics, and Asians aren't going to go to HBCU's to learn about black culture and so they rarely learn and we continue to stumble along unable to progress as a society. The point was that if you want to learn a trade, about a culture, about a people, then you go to those people to learn. You don't say come to me so I can learn from you. You're just not being very realistic in that regard. Colleges teach about all kinds of trades, cultures, and people and it's just over the top to really expect an entire populace to bow to the will of HBCU's in order to learn about African-American history. Should we have to go to Culinary School in order to learn to cook instead of just taking Home Ec?
(sorry everybody -- off topic). Tried to send you an email yesterday AB. I'll try to activate the email button on my account.
Icehouse, please continue your points. You're obviously very proud of your schools. This has been one of the best articulated, most respectful discussions on a race matter I've seen anywhere. I'm learning a lot and enjoying your perspective. A good discussion, I'd say, with Icehouse more than holding his own, while Timing and Achebe raise good points (and not going easy on Ice!). AB -- you're not the bad guy. Join in if you want. I hope you do. Carry on
Round three. If you're unsure at what career you're heading towards, but choose a school that has one or two strong fields out of a sea of mediocrity, you better hope that you never consider about switching your major. I agree. PV and TSU are black schools that are not highly ranked, but have CERTAIN strong programs. I would not suggest that someone trying to enter the field of public accounting attend either school (assuming they are trying to work for a big firm). Your point also works for white schools as well. I know quite a few individuals that went to A&M to pursue engineering, and later realized they wanted to major in business (meaning UT was a better choice, just based on rankings). Also, TSU and PV are not 'tier-1" black schools like Morehouse, Spelman or FAMU. A student will be okay at those schools no matter what they major in. You have strong black schools that are strong at everything and some that are strong at certain things. The same goes for white schools. Some students at smaller white schools like SWT and Sam Houston would be foolish to go there and major in certain things as well (I'm basing my rationalization on their opportunity to get a good job when they graduate, meaning companies recruit at these schools). Once again, if a student goes to PV and majors in engineering, teaching or nursing then they will come out just fine. Well let's stick to empirical grading instead of anecdotal it's a great school type stuff. Man, that's a good comeback. I can't defuse your point, so let's just forget about it. My point is you can't forget about it. You are basing your judgment of "school quality" on rankings and what magazines say. I am basing mine on the chances you have to get a job once you graduate. I would rather have the latter. Read on. Again according to US World, out of 185 schools rated in engineering UT is 10th and TAMU is 12th, TSU/PV not in top 50. Out of 188 schools rated in education UT is 13th and TAMU is 39th, TSU/PV not in top 50. They're not great schools according to the people that are paid to rate colleges. What is your ultimate objective for college? To graduate and get a job. I don't care what US World has my school ranked if all the big companies in my field come there to recruit. THAT'S THE ONLY RANKING THAT MATTERS!!!! Texas Tech is much higher ranked than some black schools, but ultimately most companies do not go to Tech to recruit in some fields (like Accounting). How does this keep going over your head? I don't know why you're on this tangent about companies going to HBCU's to find black employees so black kids should pick HBCU's if they want to get a job. I'm on this tangent because that FACT disproves your theory about the student limiting himself and receiving a inferior education. If my chances of getting a job at the black school are just as good as getting one at the white one (because all the companies come there just to find black employees in that field) then how am I limiting myself? These companies would not recruit there if they thought the candidates were receiving an inferior education. If that were the case, all accounting students in Texas would be from UT's program, which is ranked #1. That is not the case however. My point was that a black student majoring in engineering can go to PV, and know that they can get the same job that they could have had coming out of A&M because the same company will be recruiting there, SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR BLACK STUDENTS. Being in a more comfortable environment is an added advantage. That's how the system works.....IT IS A FACT. If you have a problem with how the system works then that's an entirely different discussion. Let's see, three black engineers with degrees from UT, A&M, and TSU. All other things being equal, which one might get picked last there? The engineering programs at UT and A&M are ranked higher than the one at PV, so I'm sure the black students from those schools would get picked first assuming all things were equal (grades, prior job experience, extra-curricular activities, interviewing skills, personality, etc.). However, "all things being equal" happens exactly how many times? I have never seen a case where two students were "exactly equal". I'm sure for every accountant that I work with from Sam, UH, SWT, etc....that there was another student from UT that looked just as good, if not better on paper. The REALITY is that all things being equal rarely happens, which is why employees come from various schools and backgrounds. The reality is that it's hard to find a black accountant at ANY school in this state (at least a top notch one that big companies want to hire). I think I would know. I've been involved in recruiting at those schools and attended two of them. Not to mention that the graduating class from my UT Masters program had 4 black students in total, AND THAT WAS CONSIDERED A LOT. The 5-year accounting program had a total of 5, AND THAT WAS CONSIDERED A LOT (this year I believe there are like 2 or 3). When I did my exchange program at Tech, I didn’t even see another black accounting student!! Granted, all of the black UT accounting students were on point and got the jobs that they wanted (most of us work at the same firm ). However, 70% of the blacks that work at my firm attended an HBCU. Three that did not attend an HBCU went to UT, the countries #1 school for accounting? One went to UH and another went to Sam? However, they were not hired via my firm recruiting at UH or Sam. They were hired via a National Association of Black Accountants conference, which is a forum that our firm uses to find black accounting students at the schools that we do heavily recruit at (like UH, PV, TSU, SWT, Sam, etc.). So let's see, I have the majority of my accountants coming from HBCU's (with quality accounting programs), the schools #1 accounting school (where everyone who graduates and doesn’t screw up will get a shot), and conferences sponsored by a black accounting organization. That's not even counting the double-counting students like myself, who went to both types of schools? Yet, black schools that specialize in certain fields aren't beneficial? Your magazine might tell you one thing, but reality and my experience as a black student trying to get a job and involvement in recruiting shows me what rankings really matter (i.e. what schools are getting money from companies that come there to hire people). Of course there are a lot of factors that involve a decision but we're talking about students picking a school because of, in the case of HBCU's, an overwhelming racial imbalance among the student body. No, students pick the schools because they can get the same opportunities (education wise and the ability to get a job) at a black school. Who said anything about students just saying...oh, I want to go there just cause the school is black? I'm sure that happens, and I agree that would be foolish...just as foolish as someone saying...hey, I'm going to this school because it's down the street from my house. However, if a student can say I can get to the same point by attending this school down the street from my house (or this black school) that I could if I went to this big white school with the high ranking, then how can you have a problem with them picking either one? You still keep missing the point that these black schools are still sound when it comes to educating their student body and preparing them for jobs once they graduate. Isn’t that what matters overall? It's probably pretty tough to listen to complaints about racial diversity in education from people like me when people like you advocate perpetual segregation in education. I'm not advocating segregation. It just seems odd to me that "going against segregation" means that the black schools should close and assimilate with the white ones, especially if some of these white schools don't afford opportunities as well as some of the black ones in certain fields. More on this later. How can schools become diverse if students are intentionally selecting HBCU's over better schools in order to be with "their" people and the only basis for being "their" people is skin color? This situation can't continue. How do you figure that the only basis is skin color. Skin color is an added advantage, meaning I can get to the same point coming out of Morehouse then I could coming out if UT, so I will choose to go to Morehouse because I have the ADDED ADVANTAGE of being around other black people (along with other advantages, but that’s a different discussion as well). He is intentionally limiting his potential opportunities. How if he can still get a good job (or shall I say the same good job that he could get at UT)? How am I limiting myself when I can easily attend a big, white graduate school later on, and experience both perspectives (there are not that many black “universities”…..tons of black “colleges”)? Isn’t doing both actually better? If you took all PV engineering students and enrolled them at UT, which is a better engineering school anyway, then where would engineering firms look for a black engineer? So should all the students at Sam and SWT go to UT as well, since their program is ranked higher? If your ideal situation happened, what schools would then be located in and be able to serve the black community? All of these variables are important. In fact you had to try to compare Morehouse alumni (one of the elite black colleges) to state colleges like UT and A&M instead of comparing them to the most elite of colleges like Harvard, Princeton, etc. I mentioned UT and A&M in the same manner that I have been mentioning them during our entire dialogue. I like how you attempt to single out this one instance to prove your point. Read again, and you will notice that I didn't mention any alumni from either school (Harvard, UT, A&M) to prove my point, which was a rebuttal to your..."well, what prominent alumni do you have, the rich black guy I know about went to a white school" comment. Like I said previously, the networking list I provided just from my school (and we were discussing networking opportunities) looks pretty good to me, compared against ANY school. Black schools were built to segregate our society. No, black schools were a by-product of a segregated society. Big difference. They were built (by black people, the state and whites with $$$) to educate students when these racist schools (that you now want us to attend) would not allow us to. That African-Americans embrace these HBCU's so much today is almost a strange fulfillment of goals by the racists and segregationists who created those schools in the first place. A very awkward situation. The founders (blacks and whites with $$$) were not racist at all. They created the schools so blacks could learn when the white schools would not allow them to. They opened up another avenue to education. That comment alone shows me you don't know much about this subject matter. Do you even know of one founder of a black school, since you deem them racist individuals? Since most of the founders were black (they just didn't have the $$$, hence the white financial support) I find it weird that they were racist towards people like them. You see, that's the problem. Whites, Hispanics, and Asians aren't going to go to HBCU's to learn about black culture and so they rarely learn and we continue to stumble along unable to progress as a society. Hmm, so it's okay for the blacks to go to other schools to further society, but it can't work the other way around? That's odd. You're just not being very realistic in that regard. Colleges teach about all kinds of trades, cultures, and people and it's just over the top to really expect an entire populace to bow to the will of HBCU's in order to learn about African-American history. Should we have to go to Culinary School in order to learn to cook instead of just taking Home Ec? Big difference between learning about African-American history and learning (being involved) in its culture. All schools teach a black history class. All schools teach Spanish. I can learn about either subject by picking up a book. However, I will not master the language (in most cases) until I put myself in an environment where it is used on a continual basis. You won't really understand a group’s culture unless you are around it. If you can't rationalize that then I can't help ya. Have you also noticed that you keep comparing PV and TSU to UT and A&M, the two top schools in the state (not counting Rice)? From your perspective, a student should pick A&M over PV. I'm assuming you also think the same student should pick A&M over Sam, Tech, SWT, etc. (if not then you are being a bit hypocritical). Your rationalization is disregarding a few key points though. A) Some students do not just choose a school based on rankings. They also consider location, cost, the ranking of their field (if they know what they want to major in), etc. Choosing to be around black people is an added advantage just like all of the things above. You keep assuming that is THE ONLY reason students go to the schools. B) How many students apply to UT or A&M? How many students get in? Where do the black TX students go who can't get into those schools? Would you rather a student go to a HBCU (that specializes in a few fields) or a community college? C) If I'm a black engineering student, and I can't get into A&M's engineering program, should I go to PV, where all the top engineering firms come to recruit, or should I go to a smaller white school that does not attract recruiters? Which option is better for me? Like I mentioned previously, major accounting firms do not recruit at Texas Tech (a big white school, which I'm sure has a decent ranking). Thanks bnb. Your turn. Come real or don't come at all.
Icehouse...you keep referring to "white" schools. I have a newsflash for you...there is no such thing s a WHITE SCHOOL. There aer black schools...and there are schools..period. thats an assinine statement...regardless of what it refers to Where do the white students go? They go to another college that suits their needs. I would think that a black student would do the same.
Icehouse...you keep referring to "white" schools. I have a newsflash for you...there is no such thing s a WHITE SCHOOL. There aer black schools...and there are schools..period. Actually, there is. When schools like UT and A&M were founded, what students could attend? Could certain students not attend? Sure, black students can apply to UT and A&M today, just as white students can apply to PV and TSU. We still refer to them as HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES because our initial critiera to attend (being a student of color) is nothing to be ashamed of. On the other hand, all white schools make themselves look bad when referring to their status prior to desegregation (at least those that did not admit students of color). Secondly, when I refer to a white school, I mean a predominately white one (are you saying UT, A&M and Tech are not?) When I refer to a black school, I mean a predominately black one. Isn't that what the entire thread is about? Thirdly, those in the majority have no need to tag a classification of their schools, or themselves in general. They are the majority for Christ's sake. How often do you here someone say "We need more majority candidates"? How many majority scholarships are there out there? Just because the tagline is not associated with the school does not mean it isn't considered a white school, especially by those that are not a part of the "majority" population of the student body. thats an assinine statement...regardless of what it refers to How so? How is it not an advantage to be around 3,000 black students on an everyday basis as opposed to 20 (assuming a student feels more comfortable around their own race)? You don't think a students comfort level has an impact on their grades (I mentioned this in another post)? My choosing to date a black girl or go to a school with more black people has nothing to do with me being racist. I just choose to spend more time (not all my time) around those who look like me, have my culture, etc. Where do the white students go? They go to another college that suits their needs. I would think that a black student would do the same. My point exactly. Isn't the black student going to a school that suits their needs if companies come to that school looking to hire students, specifically black students? Once again, my firm does not go to Tech to look for accounting students (I'm just using Tech as an example, but we don't go to a lot of places). However, we do go to Southern and Grambling, two small black colleges that are not "highly ranked" yet do have pretty good business programs that produce quality students. Thank you for clarifying my point.
Why would a company want to hire students of a specific color over students of any other color instead of - at least as the most important criterion - basing the decision on academic record?
That is an excellent question. Too bad there isn't an excellent answer. SJC, the fact that you're from Germany is showing . (I used to work in Munich, btw). See in the good ole' USA, if your skin is a certain color, you can be hired even if you are not nearly as qualified as another person of a different color. I have seen it many times myself. Speaking from my OWN experiences at the company I currently work for, we hire top graduates out of the top schools from around the state. Many of our new employees are some of the TOP students from Rice, UT, Trinity and A&M. Excellent academic records. Then we hire some from Prairie View A&M. It has been my experience that these employees are by far the least prepared to perform. We recruit there to round out our "diversity targets". I'm not saying all of their graduates are like this, because I'm certain there are many bright students who graduate from PV A&M, but I haven't yet come across them from the sampling we've hired. But going to PV A&M gave these students the chance to get a job that would have been way out of their league had they gone to UT or A&M. Is it fair? Not in my opinion.
I used to think this too. Especially when I was the white guy being overlooked because there were too many white guys already at the job. However, in my greying years I've come to realize that diversity, in and of itself, does add to the overall culture at an organization -- especially a big one. When most come from the same background and have had the same experiences, even if they are the top academically, the organization does not seem as dynamic or creative then one that is more diverse. I'm not suggesting unqualified people be given the job ahead of the qualified, but simply that a diverse group be chosen from a pool of qualified candidates. This is essential in certain jobs that require the trust of the public (police, councellors, teachers, firemen), but also seem to add something in other workforces too. (accounting???).
I am 100% in favor of a qualified, diverse workforce. I am not in favor of the unqualified personnel I have had to work with in the past.
Sounds like your company's got it all wrong!! They've GOT to be qualified for the job first and foremost. Your experience, however, supports what Icehouse has been saying all along. Perhaps the 'black schools' do offer a better opportunity for some of their students, regardless of the schools 'overall' rankings.
