At least know what you're talking about before you post. The "fools" in the Central also hit Wagner well. Wagner has given up key hits to the Reds and Pirates. Then again the Braves only get shut down by legends like Livan Hernandez and Sterling Hitchcock.
If he has, then how come the Astros still keep him? I'm talking about a career scope, not just one year. Usually, the closer MUST dominate against the bums of the division, or else he shouldn't be the closer for that team. Oh yeah, and of course Mariano has one pitch, and it's one of the hardest pitches to hit, period. Players do not crush the ball off of him, either, almost every hit is a broken bat "no man's land" grounder or a fisted blooper (aka Luis Gonzalez). Not every major league hitter--especially the outfield of the Braves--is fooled by the no movement fastball. The Braves have a lot of experienced hitters, they won't be fooled by a pitcher with one pitch if the pitch is just a regular fastball with little to no movement.
Livan Hernandez is a very sore spot for me. People complain that Maddux and Glavine consistently get calls on balls 6 inches off the plate, but no one ever talks about the rediculous calls Hernandez got in that series. He was consistently getting calls on pitch's a foot off and low. Sterling Hitchcock.... well see..... thing is.... alright, I have no rational explanation for that. Dude just flat out made us lok stupid.
Oh and yes, I was correct, professional hitters don't get fooled by him, especially in the postseason. And here are the facts: Year Round Tm Opp G ERA W-L SV CG IP H ER BB SO +------------------+--+------+-----+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+ 1997 NLDS2 HOU ATL 1 18.00 0-0 0 0 1.0 3 2 0 2 1998 NLDS2 HOU SDP 1 18.00 1-0 0 0 1.0 4 2 0 1 1999 NLDS1 HOU ATL 1 0.00 0-0 0 0 1.0 0 0 0 1 2001 NLDS1 HOU ATL 2 5.40 0-0 0 0 1.7 1 1 0 3 +------------------+--+------+-----+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+ 4 Postseason Ser 5 9.57 1-0 0 0 4.7 8 5 0 7 Its amazing that he doesn't have any losses, or saves, in 5 postseason appearances.
People <B>always</B> talk about that. Plus, Livan hasn't gotten those calls consistently for 10 years. If he had, he probably wouldn't be whining every chance he'd get either.
Are you saying Livan out-Braved the Braves? The Braves weren't alone, Hitchcock did the same thing to the 'Stros in '98.
Maybe I'm not talking to the right people, but all I ever hear is how "dominant" he was against us that series. How if he could regain the form he showed against us he would be a Cy Young candidate. I've never heard anything (of course I have from Braves fans, but I discount that as biased) suggesting he was the recipient of some very bad umpiring. On to the whining issue. How can people claim that Maddux and Glavine have gotten all the borderline calls in one breath and say they have consistently whined for the last decade in the next. Shouldn't it be one or the other? If they got all the calls they wouldn't whine, if they whined all the time then they must not be getting them. It couldn't be that they whine about as much as the next guy and get some calls and don't get others could it?
Maybe I'm not talking to the right people, but all I ever hear is how "dominant" he was against us that series. How if he could regain the form he showed against us he would be a Cy Young candidate. I've never heard anything (of course I have from Braves fans, but I discount that as biased) suggesting he was the recipient of some very bad umpiring. You can talk about both. Shaq is considered dominant even though people also talk about how much he gets away with. Same with Jordan. Similarly, Maddux and Glavine are great pitchers, but they are made even better by the crazy calls they get. Livan was dominant that day, and he was made even better by the umpiring. On to the whining issue. How can people claim that Maddux and Glavine have gotten all the borderline calls in one breath and say they have consistently whined for the last decade in the next. Shouldn't it be one or the other? If they got all the calls they wouldn't whine, if they whined all the time then they must not be getting them. It couldn't be that they whine about as much as the next guy and get some calls and don't get others could it? No ... they manage to do both. They get ridiculous calls more than any other pitchers. Yet, when they don't get those calls, they whine about it. It's just like NBA players who get "star" treatment with fouls, but then whine when they actually get called for a foul that everyone else gets called for.
If Bagwell has a bad night, the game doesn't necessarily ride on it... If Biggio has a bad night, the game doesn't necessarily ride on it... If Ausmus has a bad night, the game doesn't necessarily ride on it... When Wagner has a bad night, you see it immediately...if he comes in for a save opportunity he either converts, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, we lose (or we go into extra innings). If he does, we win...but then we all say, "hey, he's just doing his job." The fact is, when we turn the ball over to Billy Wagner to close out a game, we win many times over more than we lose...how can you call a guy who nails down wins as consistently as Billy Wagner has in his career a choker? I'm guessing there are about 25 teams that would love to have just such a "choker" nailing down games for them.
I'm guessing there are about 25 teams that would love to have just such a "choker" nailing down games for them. There are at least 12 teams with better closers than Wagner right now - Gagne, Smoltz, Hoffman, Nenn, Kim, Guadardo, Sasaki, Isringhausen, Williams, Percival, Benitez, and Rivera. Every one of them (except Smoltz who had one ridiculously bad outing) has a better ERA than Wagner. We, in fact, have a better closer than Wagner right now in Dotel. Then there are a number of other closers in the same range as Wagner as well (Koch, Urbina, etc). The problem with Wagner is that he gets paid like an elite closer, but really isn't in that top echelon anymore. His postgame interviews are also annoying -- he never takes responsibility for throwing bad pitches - every time someone hits him, he just says it was bad luck, and he acts like he's the greatest pitcher in the world and no one should ever be able to hit him unless they were just lucky. He never accepts that he's not locating his pitches well AT ALL. He throws hard, but he still hasn't learned to throw *smart* - that's what makes it so frustrating. For reference, there are 16 closers with more saves than Wagner right now; Only 3 have blown as many saves as him. In fact, out of the top 29 closers in MLB (basically, all of them), 13 have better ERAs. Only 3 have more blown saves; another 4 have the same number of blown saves. I don't think Wagner is in the "elite" class right now except by reputation.
all of that is fine and dandy, major... but billy wagner is not a choker...not this year...nor over the scope of his career. to say otherwise is to ignore a very good career.
but billy wagner is not a choker...not this year...nor over the scope of his career. to say otherwise is to ignore a very good career. I don't think anyone is really looking at his career. He was a great pitcher until his injury. Since then, he's been good but not great. His dominance is gone. Last year, he had a high save rate, but the fundamentals weren't as good - he was getting hit harder and more often. This year, he's even worse and it's showing in the results. I'm not sure how to define "choker" anyway, so I'm not sure what to say there. If you look at his postseason performance, it's consistently miserable. His one save opportunity, he blew (he got a win out of it, thanks to Spiers). When he came into a tie game, he gave up a 3-run HR. On the other hand, he's generally pretty good down the stretch in Aug / Sept. This year, he's been the definition of mediocre. What makes this game so painful is that all the players on the team did their jobs very well -- they played the perfect game against a red-hot team who's been our nemesis many times. And then within about 3 minutes, he blew a 3 run lead before he even got an out.
No, you said that it doesn't make sense that people who get the calls would still whine at officials. I proved you wrong, unless you honestly believe that Malone either doesn't get calls or doesn't whine. If that's the case, I think it's pretty clear you're mentally handicapped.
Rocketman95 - 1 Htownhero - 0 I see your point. I think you overstate their whinning though. Do they argue calls, YES. Do they argue every call, NO. Do they argue more than other great players in todays game, Not that I see, but I am admittedly biased. I think you are too. I think you are angry at them because of the success they have had at Houstons expense.
I don't think Glavine and Maddux are that bad, and lately, I've come to appreciate how good they really are. However, Cox is horrible...I mean, even ESPN makes fun of him.
