Bill Russell really is the Most Underrated Player Eva

But what I'm saying is they're all gimped compared to the latter era so don't say Russell was overrated because his era was weak. if you're gonna say Jordan should be the goat because Russell played in a weaker league then Lebron should be the GOAT because Jordan similarly played in a weaker league.

That's why I think Russell is the GOAT because he dominated his era the most and he has the most accolades. In any other sport the dude who has the most accolades was the GOAT you don't hear people whining that American Football during Joe Montana's time or Hockey during Gretyzky's time was inferior to present day, it's just in basketball this **** happens because people have to have some justification why 6 rings>11.

 

As an individual Wilt imo dominated his era more than Russell. Take away team accolades I think Wilt was a more dominate player.

Russell just happened to play on better teams with better talent around him where all he was asked to do primarily was defend and rebound.

Seeing instances where he finished with only 19 points in a game 7 while his teammate drops 47 looks funny to me. (1957 finals)

Winning a finals only averaging 9ppg look so funny to me. (1959 finals)

I could go on and on

He almost never finished top 5 in scoring or fg% amongst his peers.

That looks funny to me for the so called "GOAT"

Jordan finished top 5 in scoring consistently among his peers

Lebron did as well.

How is the GOAT not doing those things?

 

Then make the GOAT Wilt Chamberlain then, he has as much case as Russell he scored 100 pts and lead the league in assists just because he wanted to. Jordan never did that. Its just that when you say Chamberlain should be the GOAT people will say he never had any rings whereas Jordan had 6 rings that's why if that's the case Russell should be the GOAT since he has more than Jordan.

 

People say Jordan is the goat is because he has the most complete resume. Individual accomplishments and team accomplishments.

Wilt has the individual accomplishments but his team accomplishments are lacking, while Russell has the team accomplishments but his individual accomplishments are lacking.

Jordan has it all.

Rings
MVP's
Finals MVP's
Scoring titles
DPOY
All-star appearances
All NBA first teams
All NBA defensive first team
etc. etc.

The only person whose resume can compete with Jordan is Kareem. (The actual most underrated player eva)

 

Simple eye test. Change of direction. LeBron's straight away speed is amazing for his size...his lateral quickness is not anything special and has even declined greatly at his age now. A lot of it also has to do with footwork. Are you now going to argue that LeBron has comparable footwork to MJ as well? If they were football players. LeBron would be a tight end. MJ would be a wide receiver.

My question is what do you think of when you think of MJ? Probably 2nd 3 peat MJ. In other words, past athletic prime MJ in his mid 30s.

You make it seem like MJ was some primitive 50s player in his training and nutrition. Kobe and T-Mac both used MJ's trainer Tim Grover for their entire careers. His transformation from his early days to his 30s isn't some guy who was lifting cinder blocks for weights. What is this? Rocky vs Drago? Probably. PED's are rampant in today's sports.
Ron Artest himself said that MJ was as strong as LeBron. Artest started training against him in the late 90s on to the early 2000's. Kobe has also noted how strong MJ was. Horry has also said that Mj was much stronger than he looked. Yes, that was mid 30s to late 30s MJ so he's never had the full combination of that strength + athletic prime like LeBron, but LeBron's size is not like he's the Wilt of SF's. Even Durant is listed heavier than every SF of the 90s...i've already made mention in other threads how using weight as data makes no sense since weights were rarely updated back then. Just use your eye test and you will see guys like Anthony Mason easily outweigh LeBron. Pippen by his mid 30s was as big as LeBron IMO before he started slimming down with Portland to keep some quickness.

LeBron in Miami was the biggest he ever was to play PF full season:

Big dude for sure, but just as you think MJ's abilities are exaggerated into mythical status, so too are LeBron's attributes and abilities.



LeBron on low carb when he went back to the CAVS:


Even rookie LeBron was supposed to be the size of Karl Malone and heavily outweigh Scottie Pippen's listed weight:

And yes, Scottie Pippen and LeBron James are both 6'7 without shoes. 6'8 in shoes.


So if you want to do 84-89 MJ compared to mid to late 20s LeBron, of course he doesn't have the strength, but he has the explosion and quickness. If you want to do young MJ vs early 20s LeBron, or older MJ vs late 20s to 30s LeBron, then you get a more balance in all physical aspects of the game with no clear edge IMO no matter how mythical LeBron's speed and strength and weight get to.

Other point is other than LeBron, who the hell is supposed to be athletic enough and big enough to lock down MJ?

Especially in a league where you can't touch anyone up or play like this for example: These aren't midgets weighing 100 lbs playing physical..

MJ and Pippen took turns. LeBron barely even defended Durant in the NBA FINALS where everything is on the line(and they play the same position!) and when he did, he got burned every time..though yes LeBron also just barreled to the basket against Durant as well...but you think he would defend MJ? Please. LeBron's defensive abilities are exaggerated based on the exaggerated physical abilities so in theory he should be able to lock anyone down. The idea that he can guard every position is only somewhat true for this small ball era where spot up PF's play C on a lot of teams. He could not defend more than 3 positions on most teams in the 90s. He's not Rodman who gave his every effort and use of energy into defense and rebounding. Rodman locked up Shaq ffs. Had nothing to do with how fast he could run or how high he could jump.
Can LeBron truly lock someone down if he gave the effort..probably...does he? No. Very rarely and for selective amount of time much like Kobe who wasn't even a good defender over half his later career and even Phil teased him about how he was making all defensive teams based on past reputation basically.
LeBron's defensive metrics have been in steady decline since 2011 at 26 years old.

So let me get this straight. Jordan owned a bunch of short unskilled players. Today, those players are short still, but skilled. In that list of SGs, how many of them are actually good players? They're bums. Can you see them starting on 90s teams? I don't see many. SG along with C are the weakest positions today. But, no you're right. You're an all knowing fan of the game. Kobe Bryant doesn't know **** when he says players had more skill in Jordan's era. Players today can dance with the ball....and get no where. Supreme skill. But as with most of today's fans, they make today's era seem like every single player is LeBron James and Russell Westbrook level of athleticism when the majority of every nba roster is average at best athleticism with 1-2 elite athletes just like any other era..

And if coaches do decide to put a forward on MJ, who is guarding Pippen? Pippen like many 90s players has the skill to post up. Either way, none of the SF's are quick enough to stay in front of MJ. What's more important today is help defense to mask majority of the players inability to play 1 on 1 defense (mostly bc rules don't allow it, bc rules are made to make the game easier for these supremely skilled players). How many of these big forwards actually play great defense? You seem to be of that mind that some athletic offensive player can stay with MJ when they can't even stay with anyone today. No one is stopping MJ, you're hoping to slow him down, but how many defenders can slow him down? It's the same argument Kobe fans used when they said he faced better SG's than MJ. Kobe faced a bunch of guys who were all offense and no defense. Who cares if Vince Carter could jump through the roof...he clearly didn't use any of that on defense. Give me Joe Dumars to defend Kobe over some guy who can do 360 dunks. All the other "defensive specialists" Kobe faced, MJ at an old age destroyed them.

Michael Jordan at 40 was schooling athletic prime Shawn Marion and locking him down(locked up Vince for 0 2nd half pts, locked up Sprewell for 0 2nd half pts, locked up paul pierce, etc). LeBron James in his athletic prime was locked down by an old past athletic prime Shawn Marion on the biggest stage.

In the end i think you're simply of the mind that i'm overrating the past era while you seem to be overrating your era. No where in that list of shooting guards that i gave is a noticeable size difference compared to the shooting guards that defended MJ. That was the whole argument. Then you say, "sure...they are short...BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE SKILLED!" Come on man....MJ would absolutely destroy any SG in the league today. Now you want to say well...today's Forwards can guard him! Well...90s Forwards tried too. Let me guess...were they also short midgets? Do i have to make another list of SF's now?

 

Pretty much this, though i'll still take Wilt over Kareem as an individual player. Kareem had 2 other top 10 ever teammates(he was a 1st round exit usually without Oscar and Magic just like MJ without Pip) and 3 of his rings came post 37 years old and he wasn't the best player on his team the entire decade the Lakers dominated and arguably Worthy was #2 by mid 80s. The 2 FMVP's only hurts too. His stats pre merger are other worldly but there's a direct correlation with every players stats falling down to earth when the merger happened especially when it came to rebounds. You had a bunch of dudes averaging 15-20 rpg and all of a sudden they were falling down to realistic 10-13 rpg.

Other than team success, i'll make no other argument against Wilt as the GOAT. Same for Hakeem. Give young and prime Wilt or Hakeem the teammates that every other top 10 player ever had and there's no question they'd have much more team success to go along with their stats and accolades and their GOAT conversation would be hard to argue..

 

Most NBA players (past/current) and coaches list him as the best center and player ever, because of the 11 rings. So, he is not overrated. He's usually in the top 5. I'm still trying to figure out what makes him a better player. I have yet to find a convincing argument that he is better than Dream, which is I hate when people bring up the "rings" argument -- because it's relative or fair to players involve. If you are drafted by a team, like the Lakers, Yankees, Celtics, or another good franchise your chances of winning a ring are far greater than someone who is playing for a losing franchise. https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=850653&start=40

 

We were told his Defense was Top 2 Center but how good was his Offense compared to Shaq, Dream, Yao?

 

Lol he is precisely the opposite of this... He’s the most overrated player ever by a wide margin. He was Ben Wallace playing in an era where PGs couldn’t even dribble with their heads up and the average big man was about 6’7!

 

Here's another thing about the offense, I think Russell is a great player, but his offense is primitive compared to say .. the likes of Rik Smits, Enes Kanter, Greg Monroe, and I think it would be an insult to KAT, Cousins, or Embiid t compare their offensive skills to Russell. Because, to be fair they are playing against better competition, in a tougher area, with more athletic equals, or complete offensive skills. Defense, I agree favors Russell, because most of these players don't play any defense.

 

Some of these modern bigs have learned well from the Greats and acquired a vast arsenal of offensive moves, not to say that they can move and shoot like guards.

 

Onuaku > Russell

 

Based purely on rings (MJ fans favourite argument), Russell is unquestionably the GOAT. It is well known that Jordan won his titles in a watered down league: the league just went through an expansion and the great superteams of the 80s surrendered to father time.
The league is always improving. The analytics revolution means that inefficient shots are being swiftly eliminated. The elimination of illegal defense has led to teams packing the paint and make establishing deep post position more difficult. You can no longer get to the cup without elite perimeter shooting. As an OKC fan, I am all too aware of the fact that lack of spacing trumps transcendent athleticism. Sometime around 2013, most teams finally realised that a line-up made up of guys who can handle the rock and shoot at a good clip can play a more traditional line-up off the court. In the NBA, you play the position that you can defend. Lumbering centers and power forwards who can't defend the perimeter are being culled relentlessly. It is highly possible that the peak of human athletic ability have been reached in such unprecedented specimens like Giannis, AD, Porzingis and Lebron. Everyone is juicing, everyone has his stack. While we have reached a plateau in terms of athletic ability, the arms race has shifted to basketball skills. The modern NBA hates specialists. The modern NBA hates Okafor and Fredette. The modern NBA player is a multidimensional athlete. Steve Kerr and Paxson would not never put their younger selves on a roster.

 

hakeem is.

he should be nothing less than the goatest

 

Exactly. How can anybody in the top five all time be UNDER rated?

 

I hate to come off as a hater but Bill Russell's greatness imo is vastly overrated. The demographics of the league then was slower, smaller & drastically less athletic. The league also had less teams. So if you're a bigman, that can jump & play above the rim, you're guaranteed to dominate. Bill Russell is basically the 1960 version of Clint Capela. Great athlete, runs the floor, blocks shots, but has little to none go-to moves. If we're going to judge a player's greatness, you have to consider his overrall skillset & how unstoppable his moves were. I feel Bill Russell's greatness was just mostly him being bigger than 95% of the guys he played against.

 

I agree. What player do we know that was that unstoppable on offense, that's also the goat in blocks? Hakeem doesn't get enough credit, but he was the most complete player in NBA history. Outside of MJ, I'd take Hakeem over anybody

 

I'd take dream over mj. both were complete players, but dream was better at playing small than mj at playing big. he would father everyone in today's game.

 

Bill Russell is the most overrated player ever. I can name at least 5 centers and 20 players Id take over him. The fact is most players from his era couldn’t play in the modern NBA. Sure, Bill Russel could, but imagine putting Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, etc., on that Celtic’s team. Don’t you think each one would put Wilt like numbers while winning at least 11 ships?

 

Ehhhh. I love Dream, but Michael is the GOAT. Both were incredible. The only difference is Jordan didn't need to be fed because he was a guard. Bigmen have to ask for the ball primarily due to position/size. MJ could rebound the ball, bring it up court & score 50 on you any given night. He controlled the game better due to his position. No knock against Dream though