Bill Russell really is the Most Underrated Player Eva

Cat, you older than me? Much respect.

I agree with what you wrote. Didn't get to see Russell live that I can remember anyways. But to era-ize him is a mistake. And to the poster posting shooting percentages...once again, you've got to watch them play.

Win shares and PER. LOL. All they can do is estimate. None of ORB, steals, turnovers, blocked shots were recorded. So there's no way to go back and get actual possession data. So that's a joke. Shooting percentages? Tip, tip, tip on out of area offensive boards.

You simply can't properly quantify nor apply analytics to Russell. However, Russell himself was maybe the first analytical of the game. He thought about winning totally differently. Instead of "stopping" Wilt, he encouraged the ball to be funneled to Wilt, where Russell stole it, blocked it, and forced Wilt into passing and dribbling errors while cutting down on Wilt's own offensive rebounding.

Russell beat Wilt like a drum. And it wasn't because he had better teammates. He didn't. It was because Russell made his teammates better while Wilt made his teammates worse with his ball domination. Because Russell only cared about W's and rings while Wilt had an inflated ego and cared about scoring (on and off the court).

Most of you guys would acknowledge that Wilt would dominate today's game with his length and athleticism. Russell would dominate even more because of his defense and rebounding. He'd easily be recognized in this era as a defensive force of nature exceeding even Draymond in defensive impact.

I'm with Deckard on this one. Until Hakeem, Russell was the best center ever. And I'd still take him over everybody but Hakeem today.

 

Or maybe the most over rated player ever. My dad saw him play and says he was so limited offensively. Said he was like a dwight howard or deandre jordan in terms of physical ability.

Defense, rebounds, blocked shots, and easy baskets. He did it against a ton of less physically dominant white guys in a smaller league with less teams.

I don't want to disrespect him, he was supposedly a legendary leader that was the heart and soul of championship teams.

But a lot of people who actually watched him back in the day say he was limited offensively and won championships as a leader and defensive anchor on very talented teams.

 

You think the quality of competiton peaked during 80s/90s and then stopped till today? Thats just dumb and illogical, the NBA doesn't give an F about any era and keeps becoming better and better as time goes on. There were no dedicated bball camps during Mj's youth, technology and extreme video sharing content didn't exist, sports science and weight training for athletes didn't exist and globalization of the NBA hasn't happened. If you say the NBA was in its infancy during Rusell time then it was a 12 year old during Jordan's time compared to today.

How many 6'8 wing defenders did Jordan face during his day? So basically Russell gets deducted for playing against poor competition (which is not his fault) but Jordan gets away when the guy who could've defended him the best played by his side? If you will say Russell played against opponents barely over 7 ft what about Jordan? The average height in todays nba for a wing defender is 6'8, which 6'8 wing player went up against Jordan? Oh right, there was none because even Pippen was only 6'7, most of the wing players then were 6'4 and smaller, you even had Isiah Thomas who was a 6'1/6'2 pg guarding Jordan and it was seen as normal. Thats just BS and typical argument from Jordan stans who flip heaven and earth to ensure Jordan is the goat.

So many things happened between current day and 80s/90s Jordan era if you took a random 80s/90s player straight out of the time stream you think he will make the current NBA cut or not? That's the equivalent of dock workers or school teachers during Russell's time compared to Jordan's. Jordan is a pioneer of the wing position the same way Russell was the pioneer of his position, a lot of the stuff Jordan was doing wasnt done by his contemporaries but that also meant his competition was weaker, same as Russell. Nowadays people take MJ's skillset as standard, when Jordan dunked before the arena exploded but now almost every athletic wing can do the dunks MJ did and its no biggie just watch the dunk contest no names there replicate and even top the best dunks MJ did.

 

I never said that. I said that the level of competition between the 90's and today is a lot more comparable than between the 50's and the 90's. There's a different between a league in its infancy and a global monster of a league which is what the NBA was in the 90's and is today. I said the biggest difference between the 90's and today is the rules and that's true. Soft players like Curry wouldn't have made it if they were playing in the 90's because hand checking and hard fouls would have taken them completely out of the game....today they can be given MVP awards. Today you can have teams that play guys like Draymond Green significant minutes at the 5, if you did that in the 90's players like Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq, and even Ewing would destroy you. The rule changes are what changed what the league looked like, not an infusion of talent which was the largest difference between the league in the 50's and 60's to the league in the 90's and beyond. As such, players of now would struggle in the league if they went back in time to the 90's and players in the 90's would foul out almost instantly or be ejected almost instantly if they tried to play in the league today.

 

The league wasn't global during Jordan's time, people like Sabonis couldn't come to the NBA and when the dream team went around they beat every country by 50+ pts. So the infusion that you are talking about happened after MJ era.

When comparing eras everyone always focuses on the advantage of 80s players over the current gen but what about guys like Westbrook? At his heing playing pg you think he won't beat everyone up in the 80s? Kevin Durant is 6'11, he would be as tall as centers in the 80s but guarding him would 6'7 or smaller people, KD is no longer stick thin you think wings in the 80s can stop him apart from Pippen and MJ? Lebron has Karl Malone's body but Kobe's speed and athleticism how many pounds does he have on Jordan? If he can be physical and handcheck Jordan who do you think will suffer him or Jordan?

Players have evolved now, but it doesn't mean they were inferior to the players back then. Just the weight training alone and sports science turns today's NBA player into a monster compared to the 80s. Its not just about fouling out, its also about skills and athleticism. Players today shoot lights put when left open, they are also a lot quicker and more athletic than jordan era players as a whole. Players in the 80s wouldn't just foul out in today's nba, they would also not make a shot and get dunked by everybody.

 

You realize he was the one who shut down Wilt Chamberlain (the greatest physical specimen to play in the NBA) during those championships, right?

 

I have to disagree with some things, roslolian. You talk about the development of players today compared to "back in the day," but here you make no mention of the difference in the rules between the eras. It's a huge difference. It makes a difference. A lot of the "really good" players today would have been broken by the physical play allowed then. And Jordan? You didn't have to be a 6'7" or 6'8" wing to defend him. You had to have good size, let's say 6'5", and be a great defender, at least when the Bulls and Jordan were penciled in for the night's game. Perhaps you weren't consistent, but pretty damned consistent playing Jordan. You had to be a mad man. You had to be Mad Max. No one could stop Jordan, but slowing him down and making him work hard could lead to a victory against the Bulls. For a decent stretch, Max defended him very well, in my humble opinion. As well as anyone could.

 

Well you have to understand the players today are what they are because of the rules, the rules say you can't touch people so what is the point of strength? Its a misconception people have when they think players "back in the day" are superior because they are allowed to play physical.

Let's imagine Silver and the NBA woke up one day and all agreed enough with this skill BS, lets bring back the physical era. Then guys like Lebron, Durant, etc will bulk up like mad and add 20-30 pds of muscle no problem. Then you take those guys and bring them back to the 80s and they will beat the crap out of everyone and Lebron will 100% shut Jordan down in 90s rules. Jordan isn't god, he isn't space jam jordan he is IRL Jordan, if he meets Lebron who is as quick as him but much heavier and bigger how will he cope? Jordan is 6'5 and Lebron who bulked up will easily have 20 pnds and at least 3 inches on him and still be quick enough to keep up with him. In fact Lebron might be quicker, MJ lacks the current tech body building and training Lebron went through, it just isn't apoerent because in today's era every nba team has access to this tech.

The only reason nobody can stop Jordan is because he was miles ahead of his comp at the time, in the same way Russell was ahead of his time and how Lebron at his prime was ahead of his time. So if you are gonna discount Russell because his comp is weak then the same is true for Jordan. Its not Russell's fault his opponents sucked thats their problem how come Russell went through the same conditions as his opponents but he was that much better? If you gave Russell the same access to 80s/90s tech how do you know he won't be as good as Jordan was?

Thats why in my eyes Russell is goat and he will never be replaced, nobody can get 11 rings and win as a playing coach.

 

I made my argument and still disagree, strongly. I'm a "Russell fan," but I wouldn't say he was the greatest player of all time. He was a superb player, no question. One of the best ever, in my opinion. However, there's someone else I would put in his place, a player who was physical as hell, yet a poet on the court, and he isn't named Jordan.

 

Arvydas Sabonis is even more underrated. He would have been a top 5 center of all time if he had entered the NBA earlier.

 

Lebron has up and down speed...but his lateral quickness and first step explosion is not on MJ's level.

And why are you comparing Jordan's defenders to LeBron? LeBron plays SF....Larry Bird also faced taller opponents than MJ....and? They are different positions. What SG's would be defending MJ today?

In these Finals, 6'6 JR Smith? 6'5 Shumpert? 6-7 Klay, 6-7 McCaw? Nothing he's never seen before...

What about the rest of the league at SG?

Rockets: 6'5 Harden or 6'3 Pat Bev/LouWill?

Spurs: 6-6 Danny Green or 6'6 J Simmons?

Wizards: 6'5 Beal?

Suns: 6'6 Devin Booker?

Lakers: 6'5 Clarkson or 6'7 Young?

Kings: 6'5 McLemore or Afflalo?

Clippers: 6'4 JJ Redick or 6'5 Crawford?

Mavericks: 6'5 Wes Mathews?

Pelicans: 6'4 E'tuan Moore?

Grizzlies: 6'4 Tony Allen?

Wolves: 6'5 LaVine?

Nuggets: 6'6 Barton or 6'4 Harris?

Blazers: 6'4 McCollum?

OKC: 6'4 Oladipo?

Jazz: 6'8 Rodney Hood or 6'6 Burks?

Pistons: 6'5 KCP?

Bulls: 6'4 DWade?

Pacers: 6'3 Monta Ellis or 6'5 Lance S?

Bucks: 6'7 Tony Snell 6'5 Brogdon?

Magic : 6'7 Fournier?

Hornets: 6'8 Batum?

Heat: 6'4 Dion Waiters?

Hawks: 6'6 Hardaway? 6'7 Thabo?

Nets: 6'4 Kilpatrick?

Sixers: 6'5 Henderson 6'6 Stauskas?

Knicks: 6'5 Courtney Lee?

Raptors: 6'7 Derozan?

Celtics: 6'2 Avery Bradley?


SG height today is nothing different, and on top of it, how many of those names are actually known as even above average defenders? Add to that the fact that the lanes are open with no dominant big men camping in the paint or "bigs" defending the perimeter and MJ would obliterate teams.

 

I'll go with overrated.

He dominated a 8 team league where players were working part time jobs and some players like Elgin Baylor had to put in army reserve duty on weekends during the season. That's right, he dominated players that were army reservists and bank tellers in the off time during the season.

But congrats on winning all those rings. Somebody had to do it. I won't go as far as say he'd be a scrub today but 70 year old dudes that go on and on about him definitely overrate him.

 

At least lebron and mj played in a league that didn't keep out talented players because of thier race unlike the 50's and 60's

 

Wilt Chamberlain and Russell were both black.

Btw Jordan didn't play in a globalized NBA either.

 

Bill Russell said himself there was a quota on the number of black players allowed on teams back then.

Teams purposefully left out talented black players because they didn't want to much black representation.

The fact that talented players were denied an opportunity over inferior players just because of their skin tone doesn't sit right with me.

 

Who cares if there was a quota? Russell was still the best of the best of his era, same as Jordan. As talented as those black people were, I doubt they were more talented than Russell or else they would have been the ones playing and not him. While Jordan's era did indeed allow black people, there wasn't globalization because the rest of the world was just starting to learn basketball, the talent pool in the NBA was pretty much just limited to the US except for a few foreigners, unlike today where the entire world can come and play in the NBA if they are good enough. More competition = more talent if your argument is Russell played in a watered down league because blacks couldn't play then Jordan also played in a watered down league because the NBA back then didn't have a lot of foreign talent. Guys like Sabonis couldn't even go to NBA even if he wanted to, who knows what other amazing Euro talent could have dominated the NBA if only they were given the opportunity to do so.

Russell wasn't the one who denied the opportunity to his brethren, why you are belittling him because of what owners did at the time?

 

I never said it was Russell's fault but it's the reality of the politics of that time.

Some of those players left out could have been key contributors that could have helped out a lot of those teams and somebody of those players could have blossomed into superstars and potential hall of famers.

People criticize Lebron for playing in a "weak" eastern conference yet give props to Russell for playing in a weak league on a stacked team where he wasn't even called upon to carry them offensively most of the time.

 

I'm not denying that, but that is also the case with Jordan because like I said the NBA didn't have a global presence during his time so almost all the foreigners except for a few guys like Kukoc couldn't play in the NBA or were just learning how to play bball (IIRC the US dream team went around beating Euro teams by 50+ points a match and they were taking it easy).

If you are gonna deduct points from Russell because he played in a weaker league then Jordan then you should also deduct the same points from Jordan because he played in a weaker league than today. How many blacks are there during Russell's time versus how many non-Americans are there during Jordan's time? Just based on the population difference Jordan missed out on more talent compared to today than Russell missed out compared to Jordan.

That's why I don't agree with people who slight Russell because he played in a weaker era. These same people prop up Jordan when also played in a weaker era compared to today. It's tough to swallow for people who belonged to those era or were die hard fans during the 80s/90s but you can't argue with technology and progress. Are you gonna say the players today became weaker after 30 years of technology, training and sports science advancements? WTF that totally doesn't make sense it's like saying cars during the 80s were faster than cars nowadays.

 

you're talking to the wrong person about that.

I'm not like these other dudes who act like the 90's was the pennicle of basketball but it was definitely better than Russell's era.

Russell missed out on black talent AND international talent compared to Jordan.

 

What is this based on? Your own memory? Am I suppose to take your word that Lebron's athleticism is not on MJ's level considering you probably watched MJ as you were growing up or he was at least part of your rabid bball life? They don't even have official draft combine measurements of Jordan because the people didn't know tracking those kind of data mattered. What I do know is sports science has advanced during the past 30 years with the advent of computers, the internet and other technology. These have helped recent born athletes like Lebron improve their speed, stamina and athleticism through a combination of diet and exercise which Jordan never even dreamed of during the 80s/90s. Maybe if Lebron was some plebian you can argue 80s/90s Jordan would be more athletic but given that Lebron is pretty much the best basketball athlete of this era you think Jordan who trained using obsolete 80s/90s methods would have better quickness and explosion? If anything else, the PEDs available now are way better than the 80s/90s, so nah Jordan ain't more athletic then Lebron. That's like saying Model Ts were faster than a pimped out Maserati.

Why don't you ask Jordan? He was the first guy who asked Pippen to guard the other team's best scorer night in and night out regardless whether they were SGs or SFs. Bird couldn't guard Jordan because he was too slow. Lebron is just as fast as Jordan but he is taller and has more pounds. So obviously he would guard Jordan because he can.

What do you mean nothing different? The SGs today are actually SMALLER than they should be because the NBA today demands a lot of skill. If you go to the DLeague or the lower leagues you will easily see a lot of bigger SGs, their issue is they lack the shooting/scoring ability to make it in the NBA. If the rules were back in the day, then there would be no need for these skilled but small PGs/SGs and they would be pushed out in favor of the actual bigger players who are currently out of the league. A good example is a guy who guarded Harden from OKC, Andre Roberson. He can be considered a somewhat fringe player in the NBA because his shooting (and esp. his fts) are kinda bad, but what if he was allowed to bully everyone and be as physical as he wants to be? With his large frame, big hands, long arms and big ups he can just brute force his way to the basket Shaq-style. Malone pretty much did the same thing for most of his career, and honestly there are a lot of "Malones" out there who are just fringe players or can't even make it to the NBA because they lean on their physical gifts due to the NBA rules. These players would totally turn the 80s/90s NBA upside down and I guarantee Jordan has never seen guys like these. Because of the globalization of the NBA and the technological progress that has happened the last 30 years. It's just ignorance to bypass all the things that happened these last 30 years and say the 80s/90s would own today's league. It's just wishful thinking on your part maybe because you are looking at the 80s/90s as the "golden era of basketball" or whatever. Which active sport out there had better athletes 30s years ago than the present day? You mean to say after 30 years of trying to improve something the athletes actually turn out worse than if they just sat on their asses for 30 years?

Who needs big men camping the lane when you have a 6'8+ forward who will defend you and keep up with your every step? It's not like Jordan faced amazingly freakish defenders night in and night out, the best wing defender of his era was his teammate and always deferred to him. If MJ was born into the present time and received current training and benefited from current tech then yes, he would obliterate the league. But take the 80s or 90s Jordan and put him into today and say he will obliterate the league? Maybe space Jam Jordan can do it, he can dunk from beyond half court. But real life Jordan? Nah.