Bill Russell really is the Most Underrated Player Eva

he is better than jordan, hakeem, wilt, lin, and donatas, magic, and bird combined.

did i just overrated him?

 

I was lucky enough to see Russell play on the tube in our living room. All I'll say at the moment is that the Rockets are damned lucky that they didn't have to play against him in his prime. The guy had an uncommon combination of brains, skill, and athleticism. I'd take Dream over Bill, but then again, I'd take Hakeem over anyone.

 

*Overrated. Played when there were like 8 teams in the league and the average player was a gangly white guy

 

"He won at all levels"

Too bad Phi Slama didn't finished the deal. Hakeem began hooping much older than everyone.

 

He's overrated as hell by old people who can't accept that he played in a less talented league than what came afterwards. Players got more talented, bigger, faster, and stronger. He did great against the BS level of competition he faced, but in a better era of basketball he's probably not even a starter.

 

Maybe if he had somebody teaching him how to score as a big man his FG and his FT will be better wtf.

Dude created the core big men principles obviously his stats would be worse than the later generation because they already learned from the things he discovered. That's like saying Copernicus is so dumb because although he theorized the planets revolved around the sun he wasn't smart enough to realize they did so in an elliptical and not a circular orbit.

I think Russell is underrated mainly because the MJ stans need to rationalize why Jordan is the GOAT, obviously they need to undermine Russell because with 12 rings and the only playing coach ever he should be seen as the actual GOAT which would be the case in any other sport. You don't see this kind of **** happening in other sports, Joe Montana was seen as the best QB ever but back in his day American football was way less complex than today and it doesn't matter. Jesse Owens played back during Hitler's regime, but he's still seen as the GOAT.

Sure if GMs had a time machine they probably won't pick Russell, but that's because Russell lived in a time when technology and training for basketball weren't developed, that's not his fault and shouldn't disqualify him as the GOAT because it's just luck he was born earlier than Jordan or Lebron or whoever. Maybe if he was born into this era he would further refine the position and add new layers into it, just like if Einstein was reborn and then presented with the updated theory of relativity he might have been able to complete it.

 

The time gap between Russell and Jordan is approximately the same now as the time gap between Jordan and current time. If you think Russell played against garbage compared to Jordan's era then Jordan's era is also trash compared to today's era.

People always argue the time now is easier because it less physical but actually since it is less physical it more skill and talent based, in the old days you can always put your head down and "will your way" to win but nowadays no matter how much heart Irving has there is no way he will stop Kevin Durant from taking a 3 pointer. Without the ability to play physical a guy like Lebron or Dwight who would've bullied everyone on the court back in the 80s can't do ****. It's the same thing with Jordan, dude was only 6'6 but his defense was legendary based primarily on his physical play but if he wasn't allowed to be as physical how good would his defense and scoring really be? I remember his most famous shot aka THE SHOT actually starts with a strong push off against his defender, you think that will pass in today's NBA? LMAO. Jordan never experienced being guarded by 6'8-7'1 monstrosities with ridiculous wingspans like Kawhi Leonard, Lebron James or Andre Iguadala, during his era the best wing defender who could have matched him 1-on-1 played by his side. Nowadays though almost every team has a Pippen-like defender Jordan isn't a pure shooter and at only 6'6 there's no way he can score nowadays like he did in the 80's.

I would argue if you took 80s Jordan and directly inserted him in today's NBA he would not be as dominant, he would definitely reach star status but no way would he be seen as the GOAT without access to the advanced tactics and training development players have nowadays. If instead you took a random 80s player instead of a transcendent athlete like Jordan he won't even make an NBA team. So if you think Russell shouldn't be the GOAT because of his era then no way should Jordan be the GOAT.

 

Dude played technically against high schoolers, overrated

 

jordan played in an nba that is still 80% similar to current nba.

bill russell played in an nba that is almost like a different sport.

no 3 point line alone makes the game way different.

plus there were no black player quotas in jordan's nba.

 

Comparing eras is foolish. Any time machined player from the 60s would be lost. Dudes would smoke cigarettes at halftime and drink like sailors after games.

Their games were primitive. Most couldn't dribble with their offhand. Most played below the rim.

The game evolves. The same could be said of players from the 80s and even 90s.

Still, the basics remain the same. There are three phases to the game: offense, defense, and rebounding. Russell dominated two of those three and was underrated in the third when you consider how much the first two affected the Celtic's offense.

If you had a player in today's NBA that was a dominant defender and rebounder and contributed offensively like Russell did, he would be the best player on a dominant team allowing for at least average player management. He would be in MVP conversations and his team would compete for championships.

You can't reasonably ask a player to compete in eras he didn't play in, duh, so I think you compare relative dominance and in that Russell is king: 11 championships, 5 MVPs, would have won at least 10 DPoYs, and around 8 Finals MVPs.

 

Wilt didn't have a problem scoring efficiently.

FT% is a problem that has always plagued Centers, including today. I'd argue 80's-90's centers were the best of any decade(s) in league history.

Number of teams...
1965 - 9
1995 - 27
2017 - 30

It's clear which gap is most different.

 

Wilt was a career 54% so...Kareem came in as Russell went out...Kareem career 55.9%

I don't think there's any way around it....sure there were lots of other big men in the low 40s such as Pettit and Mikan and lots of guards in the low 40's but when you're talking about the greatest ever, those guys aren't involved in the conversation and a low fg% and low offensive metrics hurts you when your peer (Wilt) dominates all those categories + the categories Russell has going for him, which is defense. All he has over Wilt are rings, with loaded teams compared to the ones Wilt played on in an 8 team league.

By comparison to Jordan, he has all the raw stats, and advanced stats + 6 rings and 6 FMVP where he was the absolute best player ever time and countless big time moments that will forever be remembered. It's why he surpassed Magic with his 5 rings where he only got 3 FMVP and 2 sweep losses in the Finals and "tragic' johnson and it's why he surpassed Kareem with his 6 rings, but with 2 other top 10 all time teammates and only 2 FMVPs and 3 of his rings post 37 years old where he wasn't even the 2nd best player anymore(Worthy)..Magic was pretty much the best Laker according to WS since 1981/82 season. It's why LeBron wont surpass him(doubtful he wins more than 4..can def. see him win 1 more eventually), but certainly will make his case for #2 all time, though ESPN and media got way ahead of themselves b/c he's not ahead of Magic or Kareem or Wilt yet, and i know i'm in the minority, but i think he's still tied with Bird and won't surpass him till #4 simply b/c he's played longer than Bird so those added career totals don't do much for me.

Kobe Bryant on 80/90s basketball - "The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful. Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked ass over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required MUCH MORE SKILL."

Young fan thinks it takes more skill today....or Kobe Bryant thinks it takes more skill back then...hmm..ill take your opinion..who the hell is Kobe Bryant anyway?

If you have to ask how good Jordan would be offensively, then you never saw him play. The man at 40 was taking young men in their physical primes to school. The skill required to play at a high level at that age in the perimeter is amazing. I mean, have you see him as a Wizard?

I don't know how old you are to truly appreciate it this...but watch this...understand his age..understand the age of his defenders...understand the average age people retire...and think about what other players in the history of the game could play like this at that age(perimeter players). Ask yourself who you know today that will have the skill to play at an elite level at this age.


As far as his and Pippen's defense, it was suffocating with the help of allowing more physical D back then, but it was more than that. Watch any clip and you'll find that it was more about wanting it and the will and intensity. The energy they would expend on defense is something you never see anymore from offensive stars of today. They lived for shutting people down. You don't even see that level of intensity on defense in the NBA Finals today. Add to that the high IQ and lateral quickness and explosion and wingspan and large hands and you have a recipe for an all time great perimeter defender who used as much energy on defense as he did on offense and took as much pride in his defense as his offense.

 

It's not just the difference in time, it's the difference in quality of competition in the league. When you are talking about a league in its infancy you aren't going to have the same quality of competition as you will when the league is a global monster. The difference between the mid 90's and today is more a change in rules that requires a different style of play than it is a different quality of competition.

When Russell was more than halfway finished with his career there were still only 9 teams in the league and there was only 14 his final season in the league.

When he was more than halfway finished with his career the league had exactly 2 7 footers and one guy that was 6'11....and only 2 of those were starters and a lot of teams didn't even have a 6'10 center. That's what makes that era different from others. It was the league's infancy. For example, the reason you can't compare Babe Ruth to modern MLB players is because it was STILL the league's infancy even though it had been around for 45 years already by the time he had his rookie season. He was still playing against dock workers and school teachers. That's comparable to where the NBA was in the 50's and 60's

 

Well, if they were playing against Russell in his prime we'd be fielding a team of pasty white guys in short shorts named Vern and Jim so we're lucky not to have to see it too.

 

Who is Eva?

 

Bill is a top 30 coach all time. Or better.

 

I agree with most of what you said in your post except this part. A player who is not considered a top 10 offensive player would never be in MVP conversation today. There are quite a few D&B bigs in the league today, DeAndre Jordan is the poster boy of this kind of big man in our era. He is a great rebounder and defender and helps on the offense. Nobody would consider him an MVP candidate. Deke Mutombo could have been a superstar in Russell's era, so would Dennis Rodman. Nobody ever thought of these guys as GOAT.

 

The arguments talking about "era" or weak-competition are so dumb. He competed against the best at the time (sorry time machines didn't exist yet) and some who people rate the greatest of all-time (Wilt and to a lesser extent West) and took them to school! What do you want him to do, wait 50 years for the sport to develop then win 11 rings again?

Secondly, a smaller amount of teams meant a more concentrated collection of talent. How many super teams did Jordan face during his winning streak in the expansion era? Not a knock on Jordan, just showing how the same argument can be applied to Jordan, yet no one does, because it's all about defending Jordan's status as the GOAT.

Russell even made the point that paxson's game winner wouldn't have happened in Russell's era, because Paxson would be watching the game in the stands, he wouldn't be in the league.

Those who want to undermine Russell's accomplishments won't be convinced, so I'm not going to list the many arguments for Russell as the GOAT, but wanted to address the "era" point. It's often brought up to discredit Russell, but rarely brought up to discredit Wilt, Kareem, Oscars or West's achievements.

 

Why dou you want the 80s Jordan if you could have the 90s Jordan?

00 Jordan still schooled players.

 

Sam! I can think of one pasty white guy who wore those "cute short shorts, " as my partner would put it, that was pretty effective. Sure, he played later, but he fits the description perfectly. The guy's name was Ferd or Turd or something like that. Like Russell, he played for the cats in green. Wish I could remember his name. Age is a b****, you know.