I read once that Red Auerbach coached his team by giving his players roles and then telling them to concentrate on fulfilling their roles rather than trying to do everything, and that this is a main reason why guys like Russell and KC Jones looked like defensive specialists while guys like Tom Heinsohn and Bailey Howell looked like one dimensional scorers. He even brought a top 15 player of all time (Hondo) off the bench as a 6th man energy guy. Supposedly Russell was once shooting some midrange jumpshots before a game, and Red told him to stop because he didn't want him to be too scoring minded. Not sure this has come up, but surely someone will bring in the fact that there were fewer quality players then than there are now, but there were 8 teams in the league at that point, not 30. Nearly every team had a Hall of Famer and the best teams had several. It is true that Russell had the best team and coach in the league for many of his championships, but this was not the case in 1968 and 1969, when he coached the team (his later coaching record is not very good at all) and in both years Wilt's team was better, yet lost to the Celtics anyway. In 1968 Wilt had the same team that beat Russell the previous year and is one of the greatest teams of all time (1966-67 Sixers) and in 1969 the Lakers had the most talented Big 3 ever (Wilt-West-Baylor), and Russell was in the last years of his career while Wilt was in his prime. Many people call Wilt a choker because of these losses but I think we should also recognize Russell's greatness in leading his team over a superior foe.
Does the fact that Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double for a season say more about how legendary he was - or how less talented the league was back in the day? This is what I wonder...
My opinion of Russell's offense is, if his style produced such tremendous results ending in championships then when why change it up? Why dominate the ball after 2 championships let alone THE 8TH. And after that he got 3 more! Bill Russell should have developed offense. Well Wilt should have developed better leadership. Bill Russell's short height for a center is what hurts him. If he was a true 7 footer skyscraper like Wilt and Kareem he'd be "transcendent". Right, cuz of his lack of height. If Russell was 6'-5" with the same results itd be seen as a fluke.
Saying that Wilt had 8 HOFers to Russell's 9 is seriously misleading and flawed. Wilt obviously did not play with all of those guys at the same time. Neither did Russell. But during the Celtcs' reign they were practically an All-Star team.
The accomplishment of Oscar averaging a triple-double for a season is overrated, in my opinion. I posted this sometime last season, I'll post it again: It was a different game back then. For a guard to average double figure rebounds wasn't that incredible a feat. Look at it this way. His team grabbed 5665 rebounds that season in 80 games. Not sure how many overtime games they played, but let's say they played a total of 10 overtime periods all year. So that's 5665 rebounds in 3890 team minutes. Oscar grabbed 985 rebounds in 3503 minutes. So he was on the floor for about 90% of his team's minutes. Let's suppose his team got 5101 rebounds in the minutes he was on the floor. That means Oscar was credited with 19.3% of his team's rebounds while on the floor. I can do the exact same thing for LeBron this season, more exactly. Basketballvalue tells us that his team grabbed 2793 rebounds with him on the floor, and he has collected 589 rebounds himself. That means he's gotten 21.1% of his team's rebounds while on the court. What about the assists? Oscar's assist totals were uniquely high for his era, which makes it pretty special. He must have had the ball in his hands a lot to get so many of them. I'd estimate that his teammates hit 2561 field goals with him on the floor. That would mean he assisted on 35% of his teammate's baskets. How about LeBron? This season, he's assisted on approximately 38% of his teammate's baskets. LeBron is also probably scoring more per possession this season than Oscar ever did. It's a different era, with different rules. I have to think that if LeBron played back then and he averaged 45 minutes a game like Oscar used to (LBJ is a physical specimen, so I think he could do it), he'd have averaged a triple-double as well. There probably a number of players you could say that about. Magic and Jason Kidd could probably have averaged a triple double back then too.
It depends. Are we talking about how good Russell was at the time or are we going to compare him to players of today? Russell was a very good player back then and probably the best defensive player of his time. However if we're going to compare him to players of the late 80s-modern era, I honestly can't see him being good. To be frank, he'd be a scrub in the modern era. The guy put up only 14 points a game in an era where the average center was 6'7 and the skillsets, fundamentals, athleticism was so primitive back then. How is he going to fare against guys that are on average 3 inches taller than him and has about 40-50 pounds on him? I'd love to see Bill guard prime Shaq. Shaq has 4 inches and about 120 freaking pounds on Bill, there's no way you can say with a straight face that Bill could compete with the best of the 80s-90s. Bill at 6'9 can only defend and rebound very well. You've got guys that are 6'9 who can shoot from 25 feet out, handle the ball like PGs, pass like PGs, possess insane athleticism and much more. TBH Eddy Curry would probably eat Russell alive. Russell was a great player at his time, but if you teleport Russell from the 50s/60s to the modern era he wouldn't be anything special.
Assists were not counted in the same way back then as they are now, back then if you received a pass, took a dribble, then took the shot and scored, then there is no assist credited. That's not how assists are counted today; they're handed out more liberally.
And ....... So your saying he is just THAT damn good? Is the lesser athleticism of the athletes of Oscar's day a factor? Artis Gilmore please drop some knowledge - ole skool flava.
It's a good point. But how many of LeBron's assists come from a player who dribbles before shooting? I think most of LeBron's assists are catch and shoot, or passing to a cutting Ilgauskus/Varejao.
Read my last sentence. The Bill Russell that played in the early era would get destroyed by the competition today. Did you write all of this? If so it's horrible. Myth #4 your ridiculing people for making assumptions that's negative towards Russell when you yourself are saying that Russell would be 20 pounds of muscle heavier, athletic freak, and all that nonsense. How hypocritical.
Sure, there was less talent, but there were also less teams. The athleticism difference is an artifact of modern training. Give those guys today's nutrition and sports science for their developing years and they'd measure out just as well, and guys like Robertson and Chamberlain would be even crazier physical freaks. His rebounds are a bit inflated due to pace, but his assists are depressed because in the 60's, one dribble after the pass meant no assist. Plus he had no three point line and thus also less space to work when driving. I think he would average something like 28/8/12.
On the contrary, teams back then played at a much, much, much faster pace than teams do today. The Big O also averaged 45 mpg.
No, I'm just saying the technology was very different than it was back then. You obviously lack sense.
That's more than a bit flawed, since Wilt played with several teams, each of whom had a few HOFers, and Russell played on the same team with many of those guys around for nearly EVERY season. In other words, Russell played nearly every season of his career with 5-6 HOFers on his team. I'd bet if you counted the number of HOF teammates each guy had PER SEASON, then totaled those, you'd find Russell spent twice the amount of time on the court with HOF players that Wilt did. As for Oscar Robertson, I *did* get to see him play live on TV, but only in All-Star Old-Timers games -- and he had a HUGE round belly at that point. Compared to him, modern-day Chuck Barkley has a chiseled physique. Dude could still play, though. Especially for a pregnant guy. I wish I could find some clips from those games, 'cause it was a pretty hysterical sight.
I said that in jest. There is a misguided young poster that said oscar's numbers didn't help his teams win.
I don't know how much this fact impacts individual stats near as much as it does the odds to win a Championship. If there were only 8 teams in the league today (an average team should have a 1/8 chance of wining a Championship). I guess I don't quite see how the total number of teams affects the individual players performance? Maybe the league is more diluted, but I don't think so. I bet the top 5 teams of 2009 would beat the top 5 teams of 1969 or just about any other year for that matter. I'm a nostalgic guy so I might bet on Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celts, Dream's Rox or Jordan's Bulls but wouldn't be surprised if they lost as the athleticism of the average athlete is so far beyond what it was back then. Just curious - why did you pick Artis as your moniker? I'm from C-town and actually grew up watching him, Mickey Johnson, Jerry Sloan, etc. - moved to H-town when I was 8 and switched alliances to the Rockets. Just curious?
