I am the first in my family to go to college and graduate school. I know how tough it is. I've fought this battle over embracing education several times over within my own family and with children with whom I've worked, to limited success. But it has been worth it as I now have a brother in college, a sister with college on the brain and two cousins attending masters programs, in part they say, because when they saw me do it, it became real to them. It hasn't been easy for them either, because their high schools suck. But they are learning from my experience and my mistakes. Yes, the education system doesn't embrace them. But many of them aren't trying to embrace, either. I don't care who gives in first, but some one has to. At some point, you have to fight for yourself. For example, there are highschoolers in the San Francisco Bay area protesting, petitioning and fighting their administrations to improve the quality of their education. These students could lose hope and accept that the district is cutting their school funding. But they aren't. They are fighting because they have embraced the possibility that education of some sort can help them. In my case, I gave in first and embraced a system that wasn't compeltely fair to me. But still, I rode the system for what I could get out of it. In the process, I was ridiculed for selling out and for changes in my speech. I studied for the SAT alone. I scored miserably the first time. I had to learn to study. So, I sought help from the very same teachers that treated me like crap before. (It was hard to swallow my pride.) I had to learn how to apply to college. Hell, I screwed up the funding application proccess and luckily some guy at the college I attended took care of that for me. I don't beleive this is about race at all. It is rooted in the historical unequal distribution of wealth, power and opportunity. It is more about class and hope than it is about race. And yes, even with my education, I still speak me some good ebonics.
What a nice surprise to come home and find a different topic and some great posts from members who usually don't post in here. JeffB, your post made me think of my Dad. He was in high school in the inner city of Houston during the Great Depression in the '30's. After Pearl Harbor he enlisted in the Navy, where he was surprised to find a great deal of interest in the fact that one of his hobbies had been tinkering with radios (he built his own) and things like amplifiers. He soon found himself a chief petty officer, teaching men much older than himself about radar... which was top secret. After the war ended, he used the GI bill to go to college. He was the first in his family to do so and had never seriously expected to have the opportunity, although he graduated at the top of his class. By the time he was in his early thirties, Dad was a department chair at a major Houston university, no easy feat. I noticed growing up that he didn't have much of an accent. He said he lost it during the war. (I think he worked at losing it) There's a whole bunch of our family who have degrees... more than one, in some cases. One is a dean at another Houston university, another has a masters and writes romance novels, and several have been school teachers. It all started with Dad grabbing that opportunity and seeing how far he could go. How you speak makes all the difference in how you achieve, fair or not. It has a huge effect on how you're perceived by your potential employers and others in society. I like the example of people who change their accent depending on the situation. When you can relax and it doesn't matter, then speak in the way you're comfortable with. And count on one thing... things will change.
WOW!!! JeffB's story parallels mine almost exactly. I too was the first in my family to actually go to school and finish. Now, my younger relatives feel like college is an achievable goal and are actually looking forward to lives as educated citizens. And yes, we can easily switch from Ebonics to standard English depending on the situation. I do not believe language (or dialect, in this case) necessarily implies ignorance becuase there are plenty people that speak standard English but don't know what the hell they are talking about. That said, I do agree with Cosby in that parents should take responsibility for their childrens' education, because the system sure won't. Many teachers and administrators care about students, but a lot of them don't. Education begins early in the home and community. It takes a whole village to raise a child, but when the village is ****ed up and they tell you that you are sellout for expanding your horizons, it's kinda hard to break out.
Cosby is right. There are a lot of lousy parents and this is highlighted when poverty is involved. A woman I knew who worked as a nurse’s aid made $7.00/hr, but was dumb enough to buy her kid’s baby Air Jordans and then worried about having enough money to buy groceries. People like that must have a lump of coal in their skull. There doesn’t seem to be this mindset to save money and ensure that their children have all the advantages to make it in life: Send them to college, make sure they speak proper English, get them pants that actually fit, etc. On the flipside, I see how Asians are doing and I’m not buying the too poor to embrace education excuse. Just look at all those boat people from Vietnam. I’m pretty sure they came here penniless, but they found a way to send their kids to college (those that bypassed the nail shop or Pho restaurant). Check the demographics from UC Berkeley. It’s half Asian. I read some study that said about half of all Asian Americans over 25 had some sort of college degree. And I’m sure many of their parents were poor and didn't speak English when they first came here.
Again, there is a difference between forced immigration/colonization and voluntary immigration. The historical circumstances differ, and thus, so do the communities' responses to their conditions. It's fallacious to compare a colonized population to a group that voluntarily enters the colonizing nation. Its about way more than being too poor and not having english as a first language.
The Kid nor the Parents were at work when COZ made his judgement on them. AS you and RMJ stated IT *is* but IMO it should not be Rocket River
Cosby's point is that if you don't speak proper English, no real employer is going to want to hire you. And he has a good point. And as for it being used at home, it's like my football and baseball coaches always said. "You play like you practice." When you practice grammatically unacceptable speech at home, it is extremely difficult to switch gears out in the real world. Quit tagging some feel-good tag of "it's a dialect and perfectly acceptable" on it. Be honest, when you hear someone say "Where you at," you think ignorant, uneducated. I know I do. Even though I write for a living and am not grammatically perfect, I try to set an example for my children in the way I speak. So my point is this- speak Ebonics or redneck southern or any other dialect. Just don't come whining to me when no one in the workplace does not want someone who can not communicate with the rest of the world. And FB, ebonics and jive are the same damned thing. I'm just amazed at the stupidity in our world that such nonsense would be rationalized as some kind of language.
Absolutely. This isn't a racial thing. I understand that racism contributed to the condition we see today, but it's not the main problem here.
I'd say the biggest problem is that often, blacks who strive for a good education are decried by their peers as "tryin' a be white." As if wanting to better yourself was un-African American. That kind of peer pressure makes it hard on people to achieve. This same phenomenon exists amongst rednecks, as well, and white kids of course get called "wiggers" and other ridiculous stuff for "acting ghetto." A lot of black kids complain about getting hassled by cops when they aren't doing anything. What they don't consider is that most white-bread honkeys (and cops) can't tell the difference between a do-rag and "gang colors." Is it fair they get hassled for the way the dress and nothing more? No, it isn't. But it happens anyway. If you dress gangsta, don't be surprised if you are treated like a gangsta. When I dressed like a hippie, I was treated like a drug user because I LOOKED like one. I was TRYING to look like a hippie, and I KNEW why cops kept searching me for drugs. I used to have hair down to my ass and smoke weed all damn day. I had a ****ty job that I hated. When I wanted to get a real career and start living an adult life, I changed those things about myself. Was I more comfortable with long hair and weed on my breath? Yeah. It was nice to look the way I wanted. But I knew that if I ever wanted to do anything more than deliver pizzas, I was going to have to make some concessions. Some of my friends cracked on my new haircut and my new clothes that actually fit., but most didn't because I looked good. Could I have done my current job just as well with long hair, etc.? Yes, easily. But that's not what employers believe, and the employers are the ones hiring. No, it's not 100% "fair," but it's reality. Cutting the hair and putting down the pipe was a simple decision that changed my life dramatically. People ARE judged on their appearance and by how they present themselves. Not totally fair, no, but true, and it should be accepted.
The stupidity of comments like these is that he acts like language is keeping these people back from being doctors and lawyers. That's just stupid, I doubt any of these "people" Cosby is referring to is applying to Med School. Language isn't these "people's" problem, its a product of their problems and I really don't understand the point he is trying to make. Language isn't holding these "people" back from the jobs they would be doing anyway.
No, my point more less is that Cosby is just picking on a subject to get his audience aroused. Believe me, if a poor person wanted to improve their situation, they will begin to speak properly if they already don't. The people Bill Cosby is referring to probably could care less about improving themselves in the first place.
Cosby has been saying stuff like this for years --- I doubt he was just trying to arouse this particular audience. Though he tends to pick inappropriate places to bring this stuff up.
Ignorance = not knowing better, thus doing wrong. Stupidity = Knowing better and not doing right. regardless. Slang = speaking how you choose in a circle that accepts it. Speaking slang outside your circle = stupidity (unless you're ignorant.) Cosby is both CORRECT, and POLITICAL. PC or not, he reps what he knows fo' sheezy, ya' heard?
First off, this statement is dead wrong. If this were true, how do you account for people who speak multiple languages. They are able to "switch" gears. Same rule applies for slang. The key is simply recognizing the difference between the two. The problem arises for many when they do not/can not recognize standard English to slang. But let me say, I didn't want to respond to you but I will not because I'm responding directly to you, per say, but recognizing that many people in America share your limited perception. This is how racism largely manifests itself today. People aren't blatent racists today...they are closet racists. Many people in this thread have stated that knowingly using a dialect inappropriately is in itself IGNORANT. In a practical sense, I'll agree. But in a theoretical or ideal sense, projecting ignorance on somebody else that doesn't speak "proper" English is itself ignorant. This practice is also called stereotyping. Rather than pass it off as an inevitabiltiy, TAKE RESPONSIBILTIY FOR YOURSELF. If you in your own mind conclude somebody is uneducated by they way they speak, conquer your own tendencies and don't assume. If we all do this, we can all buy puppies and live happy together. As far as getting a job, I'll always instruct somebody to speak properly...because I know people like Bama are out there who refuse to fully accept people different from themselves.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. I'm a racist because I and most of corporate America demand workers who can communicate properly? I never said that people who speak in a dialect are ignorant, but that if they expect to get a job in the REAL WORLD, which is not your world, they must use proper grammar so they can be understood. I may understand hip-hop slang, but the average person in America does not. My Dad came up to me and asked me "What does crunk mean?" It almost reminds me of an inside joke understood by only a limited few. That's why we have standardized rules for the language (and for the rest who don't speak it, you should learn it. IMMEDIATELY) so people can understand and be understood. I, as well as my parents and my children, are bilingual. I speak Japanese as well as English and I've taught it to my children from the time they were young. But there is a huge difference between speaking a second language and speaking a rude variation on another language. Like I said before, you play like you practice. When you make a bad habit of saying such grammatical monstrosities as "Where you be," or other such phrases, you can't just switch gears when you go to work. It's not that easy. It's all on parents to demand that their children (I do) speak in a proper manner and correct them when they do not. I tell my kids that the most important thing they can learn to do is to communicate effectively and correctly. By doing so, you convey an image of intelligence that separates you from the pack of the grammatically challenged who babble in slang. Reality is that you have to be able to communicate effectively and PROPERLY to hold a job that pays anything in this country. If you don't do that, don't blame "bias" for it. It's either follow the rules or spend the rest of your life jabbering in slang in some menial job. It's a choice. Cosby hit that one right on the proverbial head.
I agree with Cosby. Diversity is important and respected the different nuances of each other's culture is important but there is a point where it becomes self-destructive. Its one thing to have the doors or opportunity closed for you and another to not walk through them when they are opened.
