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Bill banning child marriage fails in Pakistan after it’s deemed ‘un-Islamic’

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Honey Bear, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    I believe that 20% number. I don't doubt it being a higher than that either.

    That being said, however, Cohete insinuated that Pakistanis have a thing for "preteen marriage" which doesn't seem likely. There is a huge difference between getting married in the 15-17 age, although that is obviously still not ideal, and younger than that. If it is that age range (and I believe it to be) I think the numbers are more or less in line with happenings across the Indian subcontinent and a large portion of the underdeveloped world.

    I wonder what the numbers are for males getting married before 18 in Pakistan?
     
    #101 DudeWah, Jan 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  2. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    1. The Bible is a Christian holy text. Only Christians view Jesus as the savior Christ. Everyone else sees him as something other than "the anointed one".
    2. Ok, technically it's about an Islamic interpretation of a congressional bill in Pakistan.
    3. I stated that Mohamed's last wife was around the age of 10. That has been researched by Islamic scholars. To my knowledge, there is no Islamic scholarly interpretation of Mary's age, and I doubt that Islamic interpretation of congressional bills involves - in any way - Christian theologian interpretation of Mary's age.
     
  3. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    The Bible is a holy text in Islam. Again, it's okay to admit you're wrong.
     
  4. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Very surprising to hear that, since the Christian Bible contains many elements of the Judeo-Christian origins of Islam that are not present in the Koran. Most notably would be the belief that Jesus is the Christ, which in fact, Muslims may be obligated to ask Christians where in their Bible it says that Jesus is in fact Jesus Christ. It certainly does not say any such thing in the Koran, to my knowledge.
     
  5. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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  6. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    Do you even know what Christ means?

    You're speaking quite assuredly of your knowledge for not having much of it on this topic.
     
  7. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Christ literally translates into "the anointed one". Let me just say this: Muslims do NOT celebrate Christmas - the birth of Jesus Christ. Christ wasn't his last name.
     
  8. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    What does Christmas, a holiday based on pagan tradition, have to do with anything?

    For future reference, Christ means Messiah.

    A significant portion of the Quran is spent discussing how Jesus is the Messiah.

    It is a core Islamic belief that Jesus will return again at the end of days as the promised Messiah.
     
  9. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Muslims don't really celebrate birthdays in general. Even on the prophet's birthday there are no rituals or ceremonies or traditions.

    Jesus, FYI, is "the anointed one" at that point in time according to Islam. He is mentioned more than muhammad in the Quran. The only difference is that to be anointed there must be an anointer, and while in both religions the anointer is god, they simply differ on the relationship between god and jesus - which happens even within some smaller sects of christianity.

    OTOH, the bible as you describe it is not a holy text in Islam. The old testament, however, is a holy text in Islam. The new testament is not considered holy any more than islamic hadiths are considered holy because they were compiled by people who never even met the author and compiled it at least a century after the author "died"/died. The new testament, like the hadith, is kind of like a book saying "well, he probably said/meant this" by people who considered themselves divinely inspired to compile it waaaaaaay later on. I'd take it with a grain of salt. Or lots of grains of salt.

    Try compiling a book on someone a century ago starting today, see how that goes. Now imagine what it would take to do that thousands of years ago. It's just not likely that it was highly accurate, and highly likely that biases played into it - in both cases, empires had emerged which sought influence over the compilations and so it makes sense that the new testament is heavily fortified with the divinity of jesus.

    This is no diss to jesus btw, i love jesus he was an awesome dude and a spiritual genius whose core ideas still transcend our human culture. Just saying it's important to see all these books in their proper context.
     
  10. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    No, "christ" literally translates into "the anointed one".

    This is what Google returns for "define christ":

    To my knowledge, Mohamed is a higher "ranking" prophet than Jesus; after all, the Hadith is the book of wisdom of Mohamed.

    The name "Jesus" may appear more than the name "Mohamed" but both Mohamed and Moses are more quoted and cited than Jesus. And yes, many religions have different views of Jesus. The Yazidis and Druze certainly do and they have been targets of ISIS.

    However, my original point was that Islamic clerics probably, I think, probably have never (or rarely) cited a Christian theologian's interpretation of Mary's age at the time of her marriage when judging the "Islamicness" of a law. Therefore, since the Koran does not say anything about her age, I suppose, that cannot be used as some sort of justification of child marriage, though of course a Muslim cleric's interpretation certainly could.
     
  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    On mohammed and moses being cited and quoted more, I'm pretty sure that's not true having read the quran a ton of times. If we talk about who's referred to the most, there are chapters and chapters for jesus not just a nominal mention. Anyway, I don't think it's that relevant here and I'm not fussed about it.

    On the second one you're correct in that they would not cite christian theology from christian theological sources, but they would certainly cite someone like mary who is a part of islamic theology as much as christian theology and who has a cemented place in islamic history. I don't think they've done so in this case until they were grilled about the aisha question, but it's not really rare as the people who make recommendations and fatwas and interpretations rely on more than just the quran and hadith as citations and their texts cover judaic precedents very often. It's not just a matter of what's in the quran and what's not, they rely on tons of other materials. If anything, they barely use the quran at all.

    And that's just for sunnis. Shiites have an entire other set of materials they rely on, and they could make different rulings and interpretations based on that. Sometimes they interpret things differently even based on almost identical text.

    At the end of the day, try to keep in mind that aisha's age is not mentioned in the quran. It's mentioned in a book written by recently illiterate people 100+ years after muhammad had passed away by people who were getting nostalgic about pre-islamic times where women were bought and sold like cattle if they weren't buried at birth and under the purview of a very flashy luxurious new caliph. Think of the context of that time.

    What's really incredible to me - a person who distances himself from ALL of this - is that non-Muslims have the audacity to cite hadith to determine aisha's age but don't believe in anything else the hadith says. This is exactly what extremist muslims do too, they cherry pick what they want and call the rest "weak". IMO you believe in all of it or none of it because by the time it was written - a century after muhammad passed - all types of biases existed be it reducing/increasing aisha's age or glorifying/demonizing muhammad. There was motivation to legalize alcohol, revert women towards lesser rights, remove women from the socio-political process, erase scientists and historians, transfer wealth, protect political power, etc.

    This is not really a book you would ever cite by my and your standards today. How come you suddenly believe this one thing like it's the word of god? I'm not saying it's NOT true, I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

    Also there's a bigger question here: why does it matter what the prophet did? Muslims can't do everything the prophet did. For example, the prophet had more than 4 wives at a time and some of them were slaves gifted to him and then freed. Muslims are not allowed to do that. And they don't do that as far as I know. Essentially, muslims believe the rules don't apply to the prophet, so even if the prophet married a 9 year old, it doesn't mean muslims can marry 9 year olds.
     
  12. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

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    Check Surah 3, Ayah 45:

    http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/3/45/news-of-isa-(jesus)-birth
     
  13. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    Cohete you are "obfuscating" what "messiah" and "anointed one" mean. :)
     

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