Bill and Clyde weigh in on Span

Let me start this with a couple of statements: I like VSpan. I think he can become a quality guard in this league.

However, on our team, I believe that he has yet to earn any serious playing time. Rafer Alston, while far from being the perfect point guard (understatement of the year candidate?), simply CRUSHES VSpan in two important categories: FG% and 3P% (.366 to .304 and .359 to .200). It is obvious that Alston is the only PG we have who can logically start.

So, that brings us to backup minutes which would be at most 12-15 minutes, but which are (with Alston on the court for 37+ minutes) actually around 9. Who do you want to put on the court, Head or VSpan/JL3? Luther is only worse in one statistical category, FT%, and even that is only a .050. difference.

I think that the guys we run with are the best guys for the job right now and that is why JVG runs them.

Besides, who do you want spotting up when Yao, TMac, or Wells has the ball and draws a double team, Head or VSpan?

Patience, grasshopper. You will get there, but it won't be overnight.

BTW, RocketsMac, I liked your post, but let me introduce you to a word: paragraphs. My eyes were bleeding after I got through with that one.

 

Andymoon said everything I was going to say. So I would just refer you to his post above.

In short, he needs to EARN IT.

 

I'd be surprised if Clyde knew the answer to that question. I like Bill and Clyde, but i don't take anything they say about players on the Rockets seriously. Whenever the Rockets get a new player they act like they are great or are good even if they are terrible. They are homers just like every other team's broadcasters are.

 

good question Andy. first of all, I just want to say that neither one of them is the perfect fit for a backup PG on a team that wants to go to the finals. but like somebody mentioned, u cant have superstars @ every position, and since we have alot of great players, I dont have a problem with a shortage in the PG position, we can still win.

but for our particular situation, lets try to answer the question:
-JL3? absolutely NOT. not only does he jack up a lot of bad shots, but he also dribbles so much and takes a lot of time off the shot clock. that's where I think he can potentially "hurt" the team.

-Head? I like Luther. he is great as long as he doesn't pass on the 3 and take off balance midrange J's. but I really dont like playing him @ the 1. first of all, he does the same thing as JL3: he wastes a lot of time (not as much as JL3 does though). another negative aspect in making Luther run the PG is his handles. he doesn't seem comfortable in the backcourt and I dont blame him, the PG position is tough especially if u are not used to playing it. and one more thing, we all love to see Luther shooting trays, but when he plays the 1, he doesn't seem to shoot as much simply because he doesn't get the looks he would like. Luther is an excution player, not a playmaker. u make a play for Luther, u dont get Luther to make plays for others. it's just not his strength.

-this leaves us with Vspan, who really hasn't done anything special this year. but do we have an alternative? no. I really hate to experiment with new rotations when the team is winning because I am a "if it aint broke, dont fix it" kinda guy. but since Span is confident that he has what it takes and that he will help the team, why not give him 9 minutes when Alston is on the bench? I am not saying he will do wonders for this team and we will be unstoppable, we actually might suck when he comes in, but who knows? that's what's killing me. the probability that we might have a player who can help this team and we are not playing him. if he turns out to be a total bust, no problem, waive his a$$, I dont want him to "develop" because we need to win NOW.

once again, I like to use the Novak example. since we have so many great players in Novak's position, I dont even mention the guy's name. he is a great shooter, no problem, but I dont want to see a rookie screwing up out there with Bonzi, Batt, Snyder, and Hayes sitting down. but it's different in the PG position. Rafer needs a back up, and Vspan might be our best choice right now. again, MIGHT BE, no guarantees.

that's the reason why I wanted Span to play in that Portland game. in the end of 3rd, u are up 20 against a mediocre Portland team, why not play him the rest of the 4th?. play him @ the PG, not at the off guard. no risk, just let us see what he can do @ the PG.

EDIT: wooohoo, Mike Finley just hit a 3 to win the game against the FAKERS!!!

LOL Andy. I tried my best on this one...

better?

 

LOL.

yeah, like Clyde saying: "Rafer has had a great season so far, he has been essential for every single rockets win!"

 

omg!! I am actually getting a compliment from R2K!!

wait, I am not gonna break my hand patting myself on the back..

I didn't exactly say Luther wont be any good at the PG spot, he might develop some PG skills with time (Jason Terry?). I actually think he isn't that terrible playing the PG, but the problem that I have with making him run the PG is the fact that it takes away from the other great aspects of his game (shooting, cutting and finishing under the basket...). in addition, he is already getting enough minutes at the 2 to make him play some 1 (even though 10 minutes wont break his back). but yet again, there's always a chance that Vspan might prove to be reliable for 8 minutes @ the 1.

 

I didn't really like what I saw last game. Besides still attracting fouls like it's his job, I thought he was still reckless offensively.

First drive, he went up in the air and nearly got caught with nowhere to go (on the other hand, he showed pretty good body control to not get a charging call, and a pretty good split second decision). The 2nd drive, he was dominated by Lafrentz. With a mismatch like Spanoulis vs. Lafrentz, the textbook play is to create the space (he was already giving him plenty) and take a jumper.

Luther Head has taken over the backup PG minutes, in part because Bonzi is back in the rotation. The only time it will really be a problem is when team's pressure the ball. I think JVG will try to make sure TMac is in there with Luther in the event that does happen, but I think Bonzi may be capable of beating the pressure as well. I think it's important to realize that either TMac or Bonzi will be in the game virtually at all times, and the offense has usually been running through them - I've been very impressed with Bonzi's playmaking. Head's job won't be to make plays, just minimize mistakes.

Luther is younger than Spanoulis to boot. I question his ability to really develop into a PG, but I'm encouraged in seeing him start to develop a midrange game, and even taking people off the dribble to the basket.

 

Firstly, the jury is still out on KillBill. The old saw is that a player's greatest improvement comes between 1st and 2nd year (I think year 2 and year 3 can be as great or greater), so, let's see what happens net October.

Secondly, this team's best b/u 1 is...TMac.

Finally, finish this sentence PLEASE: If JVG is extended then Spanoulis is ________.

 

What has JLIII done to EARN IT?

 

I saw these plays as well, but I really think the sample size is way too small to even analyze this as thoroughly as you did. To draw any conclusions or make any judgment from these 2 1/2 minutes really would not make too much sense, imho.

I assume you are not seriously suggesting that for determining a role on the current Houston Rockets roster, 6 months age difference between 24 and 24 1/2 should make any difference whatsoever? Or how else are these 6 months even significant enough to deserve mention?

 

V-Span will be traded for JJ Redick before the deadline... Just a hunch...

 

I see what they're getting at, but they're off base when they say other Euro players haven't been able to come in and have good first seasons. Just off the top of my head, Petrovic, Nowitzki, and Kukoc all had good rookie seasons for the minutes they were given. Just look...

Petrovic (in 12.6 mpg): 7.6 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 1.5 apg, 49/46/84 shooting %'s

Nowitzki (in 20.4 mpg): 8.2 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.0 apg, 41/21/77 shooting %'s

Kukoc (in 24.1 mpg): 10.9 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 43/27/74 shooting %'s


Those are not bad rookie seasons by any stretch of the imagination, but Bill and Clyde twisted it to sound like these guys sucked. The truth is that they didn't suck in their rookie seasons. They simply had rookie seasons. For most players (excluding LeBron and such guys) there is an adjustment period. You just have to put the kid on the court and let him work through things, because otherwise, he'll basically be a rookie next year too. When does it end?

Another thing I hear is "he's a late second round pick, so what do you expect???". Well...true, he was selected in the second round. Nearly 3 years ago, that is. He's 24 now, with more experience and a solid showing at the World Championships under his belt (especially against NBA competition). You think if the draft had occurred after the World Championships and Spanoulis was still available, he still would have gone so late? Don't kid yourself. Sure he doesn't have a jumpshot, but this guy is not 2nd round talent, and we didn't pay him 2nd round money. Why label him as a "late second round pick" so we can justify his lack of playing time? Where he was drafted 3 years ago means absolutely dick at the moment.

All that said, I don't have a huge problem with him not getting time. I do, however, think if he were on most other teams (even the good ones with lots to play for) that he would be getting minutes. I am a JVG fan, but that doesn't mean there aren't things I don't like about him. Do I want him to put Spanoulis in the game when there's a win at stake? No. Do I want him to put Spanoulis in the game when we're up 25 with 6 minutes to do? Yes. 15 with 4 minutes to go? Yes. It's really not that dangerous if you're smart enough to call a timeout of the other team gets within striking distance again.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think Spanoulis deserves rotation minutes yet, but what the hell is the point of not letting him get some run during garbage time? Oh yeah, it's because he's a late second round pick, right?

 

SJC -- It was in response to R2K saying Span "wasn't horrible out there". He wasn't horrible, but I didn't see anything that would make me say I would want to see more of him. Those two offensive plays stuck out as the wrong decisions to me, combined with the unnecessary fouls. I agree that it's not any sort of ultimate judgment. I'm just saying nothing in his performance was really a positive that might earn him more minutes.

Basically, he didn't make any sort of case that he should start being re-involved in the rotation.

Edit: You can't extrapolate his performance out of this, but this idea that he's our best backup PG option is just flat out unfounded at this point. Generally, all the arguments for him are based on what he "could" do. Perhaps it's unfair to judge him on limited minutes, but it'd be heinous for Van Gundy to give him more minutes considering his game performances to date, and apparently practice performance too.

Which is actually my point. The argument for some has been Spanoulis needs minutes so he can develop. Those minutes would come at the expense of Head and JL3. There's a tendency to fall in love with Spanoulis' potential as an excuse to develop him, while forgetting Head is just as young and even a bit younger, as is JL3.

 

I agree, but the thing I like when Spanoulis is in is that he gives the opposing defense a different task than Alston does...they have to adjust. One could say something similar about JLIII, but from the games I have seen (and I have to admit that the Nuggets game is the one I remember best), JLIII reminds me a bit of Moochie Norris when it comes to dribbling too much, and he seems to be looking too much for his own shot. I may be wrong, and I am aware of the weaknesses VSpan has displayed so far (turnovers, fouls, bad outside shooting), but to me, it seems that VSpan has far more potential than JLIII to create for others on the team.

I wouldn't take age as an argument, but the potential to be a creator for others. I don't have stats to base that on, only the minutes I have seen so far from VSpan.

I think when you plug in Head and JLIII, you have a better idea of their strengths and weaknesses already - but it seems to me that neither of them will ever be a creator who can get 15 assists when he is on. I don't know if VSpan can (but Yao's statement that he reminds him of Steve Nash, as exaggerated it might have been, points in that direction), but it seems to me that there is more potential for that there. But in order to develop into that direction, he will need to get more comfortable with his teammates, and that means he would have to get minutes.

 

Gasol has had the best of all Euro rookies. Not just a good season for a rookie but a good season period - 17, 9, & 3, over 50% shooting.

 

I agree that JL3 looks way too much for his own shot, but I think in part it's been because he plays in lineups without guys who just aren't able to do anything themselves. I've done it in other threads, but Lucas has played far fewer minutes with both Yao and Tmac than Spanoulis, and also few minutes with Bonzi. Personally, I'm more curious to see how Lucas would adjust to playing with real offensive options. As for the Moochie comparison...eww. One thing Lucas does exceptionally well is get us into the sets extremely quickly.

Which is why the fascination for Spanoulis. Head could use some developmental minutes to become a better penetrator, which is something he's starting to show in flashes. But I think it's a chicken and egg thing -- you have a better idea about Head and JL3 because they've been good enough to get on the floor. If the impression was that Spanoulis would be a real asset THIS year, I could see getting him minutes now, but there is no sense in spending the minutes "getting him comfortable" with his teammates if he's not going to be in the rotation come playoff time. And while there are some things best learned through experience, 90% of the people on this board could tell you which passes Mutombo is going to catch, and which are heading for the first row.

To me, a lot of it goes back to what I've been saying for awhile now -- he's not adjusting himself to the team. He's playing his style of defense, which leads to high fouls, which is just in conflict with Van Gundy defense (the Rockets are 26th in fouls committed/game). Based on his quotes, he doesn't believe in the system; obviously with that attitude, he's not going to commit himself to it.

I also don't think a "playmaker" who is going to make a lot of mistakes is high on the Rockets' priority list right now. Alston's a better creator than he's been showing this season, but again, the playmaking is going to lie on Tmac, and then Yao, and then Bonzi (if he can keep his head in the game). We're very fortunate to have exceptional playmakers in the post and on the wing. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I think a part of the reason Spanoulis has played the 2 when he's been in there is the facts of this team - the ball is going to be in TMac and Yao's hands, and anyone who wants to play with them has to be comfortable playing off the ball.

For comparison's sake, Tony Parker's career high in assists is 6.1, and that was the only time he eclipsed 6 assists in his career. Steve Francis averaged more than that the first 6 years of his career. I don't think anyone would argue Francis is a better pure PG than Parker, or that Parker isn't a talented playmaker. The difference is, Francis has almost always played in guard-centric offenses, which lets him make the plays. Parker plays with Duncan. Parker plays off Duncan extremely well, and has always limited his turnovers (only one year below 2/1 AST/TO). Conveniently enough, the year Parker logged 6.1 assists was also the year Duncan missed the most games and played the fewest mpg of his career. Further, Parker has learned to become a very high percentage scorer - 44%+ every year since his rookie year. These are traits that Spanoulis just hasn't displayed, be it due to a new environment and unfamiliar role or unwillingness. It doesn't really matter which, but it's good reason to keep him off the floor.

So break it down to the 2 sides of the ball. On defense, he's basically ignoring one of the key components of our scheme; I see high defensive potential in him, but if he thinks he knows defense better than Van Gundy, he's dead wrong. On offense, he can't hit jumpshots. His playmaking skills are tempered by being turnover prone. The Rockets play a low possession game, which negatively accentuates turnovers.

Until he does some combination of the following:
1.) Accepts the defensive scheme (don't foul on the perimeter)
2.) Minimize mistakes (turnovers)
3.) Fix his jumpshot / get higher percentage shots.

It should come as no surprise that he's not getting PT. Nor should he.

 

The problem is that this would take 9 minutes away from Head, Snyder, Wells, and/or Alson, all of whom have shown that they do more positive things for the team than VSpan does.

A bit.

 

Clyde is right. Vspan is ready, but is not getting the opportunity.