If argue they wouldn't. Do the research. I think you may be surprised. Even Hall of Famers. oh calm down; you and Nick have a solid argument based on statistics. It's hard for me not to consider the full body of Ryan's work, and that shouldn't be the case--but it's really hard to ignore. For their career, Roy isn't in Ryan's league. He's just not. Like I said, I'd be more easily talked out of including Ryan than talked into including Oswalt.
...should read, "I'd argue..." By the way, JR Richard doesn't get nearly enough love. If the stroke doesn't happen, he arguably ends up as a Hall of Fame lock. Dude was flat-out dominant.
Fun fact: I was playing in a little league game many years ago and he happened to be at a game when I hit my first home run. I don't even think I waited for the game to end before I asked for his autograph on that ball. I would have needed to hit a few more give him a handful.
43 players total. Kind of surprised that some older franchises like the Phillies and Pirates have only had 1 guy each to accomplish the feat. The Cardinals have only had 2, one of them being Pujols. The Cleveland Indians and Oakland Athletics have none. Atlanta Braves - Hank Aaron / Andruw Jones / Chipper Jones / Eddie Mathews / Dale Murphy New York Yankees - Yogi Berra / Joe DiMaggio / Lou Gehrig / Mickey Mantle / Babe Ruth Boston Red Sox - Dwight Evans / Jim Rice / Ted Williams / Carl Yastrzemski Chicago Cubs - Ernie Banks / Ron Santo / Sammy Sosa / Billy Williams San Francisco Giants - Barry Bonds / Willie Mays / Willie McCovey / Mel Ott Baltimore Orioles - Eddie Murray / Cal Ripken Chicago White Sox - Paul Konerko / Frank Thomas Cincinnati Reds - Johnny Bench / Frank Robinson Detroit Tigers - Norm Cash / Al Kaline Houston Astros - Jeff Bagwell / Lance Berkman Los Angeles Dodgers - Gil Hodges / Duke Snider Seattle Mariners - Ken Griffey / Edgar Martinez St. Louis Cardinals - Stan Musial / Albert Pujols Colorado Rockies - Todd Helton Kansas City Royals - George Brett Minnesota Twins - Harmon Killebrew Philadelphia Phillies - Mike Schmidt Pittsburgh Pirates - Willie Stargell Of the above players, there are only a handful of retired players who don't have their jerseys retired by the team they accomplished the feat with, and weren't implicated in a steroid scandal. That includes Dwight Evans, Norm Cash, Gil Hodges, Andruw Jones, and Edgar Martinez. Martinez is surprising since the Mariners are a relatively young franchise with zero retired numbers thus far... but him being a career DH may impact things. Andruw Jones just recently retired... I could see the Braves retiring his number. The others all played for three historic franchises (Red Sox, Tigers, Dodgers) that simply have too many great players to automatically induct them, but it still wouldn't offend anybody. Also, of note, all current hall of famers who qualified for this stat did have their jersey's retired by their teams. Of course, guys like Sosa and Bonds may never get the honor (although I feel Bonds will eventually get it). Pujols, Griffey, Helton, and Frank Thomas are all locks. I feel Berkman should be a lock as well... Konerko doesn't "seem" like a lock, but when its all said and done, he'll be pretty high up there with the all-time greats.
duly noted! I expected something a bit different. You also make a good point about the storied franchises. That said, I guess if Lance were elected to the HoF then I'd be inclined to retire his jersey. as if it were up to me.
And ERA+ reflects that, but also 1866Ks >>>> 1593Ks (and that is with Ryan pitching 80 innings fewer) Ryan also led the league in ERA twice as an Astro (Oswalt led once). I'd agree that Oswalt had the greatest Astros career of any pitcher though. Ryan obviously gets benefit for his whole career, and the fact that he was shown the door by McMullen.
Other than longevity (which isn't unimportant, especially given how effective Ryan was into his 40s), what are you basing that on? Oswalt had a significantly better ERA+ and WAR (as an Astro; in roughly the same number of innings)... he didn't strike batters out at the same rate, of course - but he also walked significantly fewer (nearly 3 less/game). I'm not denigrating Ryan (you almost *have* to retire his jersey); I just think you're underrating Oswalt - he was a *much* better Astro pitcher than Ryan was, and while Ryan has a lot of cool ancillary accomplishments - were any bigger than game 6? In terms of merit, I think the Astros' retired jerseys should look like this: 1. Bagwell 2. Berkman 3. Oswalt 4. Biggio 5. Dierker 6. Wynn 7. Cruz And that's where I'd draw the line (although, again - I'm cool with Ryan: if a future HOFer plays for your franchise - while still in his prime and for more than a cup of coffee (so no, Randy Johnson)... then you probably have to retire the number.)
Oswalt before Biggio? Did you watch the Astros? Berkman was a decent player, but above Biggio? Come on man...
The Astros need to decide how they want to handle this. They can have an Astros Hall of Fame or Ring of Honor.... or they can just retire a number of guys numbers. I personally would rather see the jersey retirement be limited to a very selective group. Bagwell, Biggio, Richard, Ryan, Wagner, Oswalt all deserve some degree of honor..... in that group I think that Biggio and Bagwell deserve to have their numbers retired regardless of how exclusive they want number retirement. Both are Hall of Famers regardless of the criteria you wish to use. At this point Jeff Bagwell is criminally underrated.
Berkman was decent? His OPS+ is 3 points behind Bagwell's; he was not "decent" - he's one of the greatest switch-hitters of all-time and an infinitely better player than Craig Biggio. It's a shame you don't have a greater appreciation for him because that dude could rake.
Oh, and as for Oswalt v. Biggio - Oswalt was a terrific pitcher; he contributed 49.9 WAR to Biggio's 64.9 despite 10 fewer seasons (WAR is a counting stat). Biggio was average, or worse (far more often worse), for the final seven years of his career. He was certainly great in his prime, and I think he's a Hall of Famer. But I don't think he was better than Oswalt (though I respect some of Biggio's ancillary accomplishments, in terms of playing his whole career here, etc.) If you want to flip-flop 'em, whatever. But no way Biggio was better than Berkman.
Amen. There is the allure of the player, and Biggio was undoubtedly the heart and soul of the Astros while being one of the best second basemen to play the game. Granted, his stats will get him in to the HOF, but there was so much more to him than just numbers. I was unaware that decent was a bad term for a player? And before you jump to conclusions about people's thoughts on players, Berkman is one of my favorite Astros and II have actually gotten to know on a few different occasions through events. He is a terrific baseball player and a better human being. And I know, it's the internet: serious business.
The only universe in which Berkman is better than Biggio is the one where baserunning and defense don't count. (and a lot of guys tail off at the end of their careers: what would Berkman look like if he carried on another seven years?) Biggio is a no-doubt hall-of-famer. Berkman is a really great hitter.
nothing other than longevity. for one thing, that's how big I see longevity in terms of a career. secondly, that particular comment was in reference to their entire careers. I won't argue with you guys about the stats during the two's Astros careers: you are right. but in terms of a career: Roy doesn't belong in the same sentence with Nolan Ryan. He just doesn't.
yes. for a player like Lance Berkman, "decent" is a bad term. I realize from your context what you really meant, but great players are great, not decent. and while I agree with you regarding Biggio's stature over Berkman, make no mistake: Lance Berkman was great.
I feel like I was bickering with another kid, and then MSN came in and cleared it up and set the facts straight. Ha. As for the decent bit, I mean in regards to all time greats. I assume that this conversation (retired numbers and HOFers) would assume that it was in that context. Berkman is a fit for someone that should have their number retired, and that is all I meant by that. He will go down as one of the best switch hitters the game has seen, and I respect that. He is decent as far as great players go
