Never going to happen, at least not in any significant sense. That is my reasonably informed opinion. (And I donated to my alma mater's fuel cell laboratory, because I bought it as "the only real choice" at the time.) Hydrogen is just too inefficient a storage medium. The supercapacitor technology seems more promising to me right now.
I'd argue it's less to do with efficiency, as it is with abundance. Are you referring to potential energy, or physical storage?
I just can't see us creating a hydrogen infrastructure in this country like we have with natural gas and electricity. Hydrogen transport has 30% losses in the best of conditions, and it can be worse. So any hydrogen fuel cells that are sold will have to be paired with a hydrogen producer. We're not going to have miniature gas reformers installed in our houses, so that leaves electrolysis. When you compare the economics of charging a battery to electrolysis, hydrogen fails. The storage is a relatively minor issue and can be worked out. (All of this assumes that no new technologies for hydrogen production will be developed. All bets are off if that happens.)
The problem is that the US government can only regulate US companies. If you regulate the US oil companies, then you will just make them less competitive in the world-wide market. You also need to keep in mind that while Exxon is a huge company, it is small in comparison to the various state-owned oil companies. If the US oil companies are put at a competitive disadvantage against these large state-owned entities, the US will suffer.
Economy of scale. Make a hydrogen station like a gas station? I am relatively unfamilir with the process (and more importantly, the economics) of hydrogen production. I had to design for the stuff all the time at NASA, but we obviously were not producing it. Just burning the **** out of it.
I'm guessing that you mean with on-site or nearby production? Actually, that makes more sense than anything else. It's how the hydrogen producers provide for their largest industrial customers. I have a friend who works for one that is located totally within a refinery who buys 80+% of the hydrogen produced. Here's the most efficient current process: http://www.getenergysmart.org/Files/HydrogenEducation/6HydrogenProductionSteamMethaneReforming.pdf Right now, it's a very green technology, because it's the CO2-producing technology where sequestering is most viable. However, there's only so much CO2 market out there, with significantly increased hydrogen production from this process, that may or may not remain viable. I also don't know where we're at with natural gas resources for this, or even if it's better than just burning that gas in a traditional engine. The electrolysis process is an electricity hog, and no economy of scale will fix that. It's inherently worse than charging a battery.
margins are declining is what the point was. do you understand that refiners are getting killed because gas is not going up as fast as oil? the prices are determined by the market not the oil companies. if it was determined by XOM then i am pretty sure they wouldn't have let gas rise slower than oil to ensure that their refining business didn't get killed like it did. ...and gee i wonder why oil companies are having record profits....could it be because the commodity they sell is at record highs? nah couldn't be that. how is the oil and gas industry a monopoly? there are thousands of competing companies in the industry. again you don't seem to understand that energy is a WORLDWIDE business and america doesn't control it. we are the ones controlled by it. i don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. have you even looked at every other freaking commodity? they have skyrocketed just like oil. the companies that produce those commodities are not monopolies either. it is the market that is determining the prices of the commodities they are producing. why don't you provide some data that US oil companies are cutting back on production since you say they are the ones responsible for these prices? well you are complaining about profits and he is trying to show you that oil companies don't have the highest profit margins around. i dunno...maybe oil below $10/barrel killed it.
I have been the true thought leader in this thread, providing the most information and insights into the industry. No one here can even come close to my understanding of oil and gas prices and that is evident. For you to call that 'trolling' suggests that you simply do not want to hear opposing facts presented. There is no doubt I have contributed in a positive manner to this discussion. So many people are looking for answers here, and I have been gracious with my extremely valuable time in providing them.
Ah. Steam reforming. I have seen that, but in relation to ammonia plants, not H2 production. Hilarious that I never thought about it wrt to pure H2 production.
not really countering your point, but just realize, this is an automobile culture. at some point we will have to adjust, but outside of cities like ny and chicago, the automobile is central to american life. from the automobile companies to the oil companies to even restaurants like McDonalds, the automobile has been central to the american way of life. i'm not educated on alternative energy solutions for the automobile but i do understand its either find another fuel, or find another way of life. both will be slow and probably sometimes painful process for everyone involved, consumers, auto manufactures, energy compaines, and all the companies that rely on the consumer to be able to drive his/her car/truck/suv/van/motorcycle, etc. to get to their product. its not as simple as stop whining. the current prices probably aren't killing people, people have to take more seriously their choices when to fill up. but what people are looking at down the road is a change in the way of life that is american.
You are most definitely being an ass through language and tone, but I agree that you are not trolling this thread and actually trying to present some arguments. Of course you always present yourself as the thought leader in just about any thread, but you seem to have even more gusto for such in this thread. Why is that? Why do you know so much? For some reason you are shy about identifying anything close to a career, despite being brash about...well, everything. I also agree that the senate is just pandering to their angry consumer base. This is also nothing new, they do it about every 2-4 years with the O & G industry. Express outrage, ask "tough" questions, do nothing but look good to voters. Yay.
I agree with you. The people I truly feel sorry for are the people that must drive large vehicles for their jobs and/or career. I don't have sympathy for the suburban families with 2 or 3 kids that bought the Yukon, Suburban, or Excursion. I don't care if gas was 1 dollar/gallon when you bought that vehicle, it was excessive back then and it's excessive now. The only difference is the rise in gasoline prices. I think the high gas prices are a good thing if it forces us to change our society of excess with regards to oil consumption and pollution. Even with the high gas prices, I probably spend less than 80 a month in gasoline. My car isn't a hybrid or even a high MPG vehicle like the Echo. If high gas prices make driving excessively wasteful vehicles cost prohibitive for the average person, then I'm all for it. I don't think gas prices are even that high as prices currently exist. We've just been lucky for so long to have extremely cheap gas prices.
I do, but I won't whine and expect the government take action if the prices go up on a luxury I enjoy in my life. I like to drink beer, but if I go to the liquor store tomorrow and prices are $10 per bottle of beer, I'll just drink less beer or quit drinking altogether. If my cable bill goes up to $300 a month, then I'll start renting DVDs, I won't cry and say it's a tragedy that my kids will have to watch Sesame Street instead of Dora the Explorer. Very few people need to drive these large vehicles and living in the suburbs is a choice that people make. There are positives and negatives to that decision. You say that the schools are better (because no one from an inner city school has ever made it), the municipal services are better, and the streets are safer. Well, obviously those things are worth the consumption of extra fuel or you wouldn't have made the choice to live where you do. People have made completely voluntary choices to live where they live and drive what they drive. Now the prices on a consumer good, in a free market economy, driven by supply and demand, have gone up? That's a shocker! No one could ever foresee that!
My guess is that Trader_Jorge's wallet benefits from high oil prices. So naturally he will defend using some "basic" economic analysis why oil company profits have quadrupled over the last five years while it is the rest of us that have to worry. As long as T_J has his self professed well manicured lawn, he will be happy. When the oil bubble bursts, we can all laugh at him in the unemployment line. The first paragraph of the post was reposted for truth.
