I agree and I find this very troubling. What I am wondering about though is given what we know at the moment is this illegal? I like you strongly suspect the NSA is doing more than just data mining but our suspicions aren't the determinate of what is illegal. I'm wondering if government data mining is illegal since it isn't wiretapping? If it isn't then should it be?
Everyone except administration apparatchiks think it's illegal. Drum summarizes... http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
Via Josh... FCC Commissioner Michael J. Copps: "Recent news reports suggest that some – but interestingly not all – of the nation’s largest telephone companies have provided the government with their customers’ calling records. There is no doubt that protecting the security of the American people is our government’s number one responsibility. But in a Digital Age where collecting, distributing, and manipulating consumers’ personal information is as easy as a click of a button, the privacy of our citizens must still matter. To get to the bottom of this situation, the FCC should initiate an inquiry into whether the phone companies’ involvement violated Section 222 or any other provisions of the Communications Act. We need to be certain that the companies over which the FCC has public interest oversight have not gone – or been asked to go – to a place where they should not be."
from josh -- Yep, they are scrutinizing journalists phone-records. According to ABC's Brian Ross ... Ross's report is still awfully murky. But it suggests that the FBI is using new provisions of the Patriot Act which allows for the expanded use of so-called National Security Letters. As Ross explains, "the NSLs are a version of an administrative subpoena and are not signed by a judge. Under the law, a phone company receiving a NSL for phone records must provide them and may not divulge to the customer that the records have been given to the government." In rule of law terms, I guess there's some extremely mild solace to be taken in the fact that the administration has apparently deigned to follow the law in this case. But a police state law still gets you a police state. This is what the Patriot Act is being used for. In a free society, law enforcement goes before independent magistrates. Apparently we're now beyond that. -- Josh Marshall
I believe this is a smoke screen and a trial balloon. The government has the capability with advanced forms of PROMIS software to monitor much more personal information on every citizen without the phone companies knowing about it. Prosecutor's Management Information System (PROMIS) has been evolving into more sophisticated spy software since it's development in the 70's. With PROMIS today the government already can monitor your every movement and even track your life by financial transactions of every kind, all computer usage, phone conversations, medical and any other data that is available electronically. This NSA stuff serves as a trial balloon to gage public reaction to their monitoring efforts of citizens. This is a technique the CIA and NSA often use by sending out small potatoes they can gage public reactions. In the intelligence community illegal monitoring of citizens is routine with the advanced softwares being used. Wickipedia - PROMIS software- LINK
I believe those are referring to the NSA warrantless wiretappings and not the data mining. I also didn't see that piece in your link. Anyway I'm in total agreement this is a bad thing but I'm interested in figuring out the exact legal issues around it.
OK SC... see http://www.acsblog.org/bill-of-rights-2835-guest-blogger-nsa-again-violates-the-law.html and... http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/05/legal-issues-governing-administrations.html#links
Anyone remember Dutch director Wim Wenders', The End of Violence, from 1997? The similarities to what Bush and Co. are doing to Americans today is scary. A freaky film, with Bill Paxton in an unusual role. I saw it last night on cable. Trippy. Keep D&D Civil.
That's interesting stuff Rimrocker. I am curious to see what those who support the Admin have to say regarding its legality or illegality.
I'm 100% in support of this program. In fact, they aren't taking it far enough. The NSA needs to actually listen into conversations, not just track calling patterns. I don't call terrorists, therefore I gladly submit my private phone conversations to the NSA.
New Presidential Memorandum Permits Intelligence Director To Authorize Telcos To Lie Without Violating Securities Law In recent days, AT&T, Bell South and Verizon have all issued statements denying that they’ve handed over phone records to the NSA, as reported by USA today. There are three possibilities: 1) The USA Today story is inaccurate; 2) The telcos left enough wiggle room in the statements that both the USA Today story and their statements are accurate; or 3) The statements from the telcos are inaccurate. Ordinarily, a company that conceals their transactions and activities from the public would violate securities law. But an presidential memorandum signed by the President on May 5 allows the Director of National Intelligence, John Negroponte, to authorize a company to conceal activities related to national security. (See 15 U.S.C. 78m(b)(3)(A)) There is no evidence that this executive order has been used by John Negroponte with respect to the telcos. Of course, if it was used, we wouldn’t know about it. http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/17/new-executive-order/ The MOU http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-4538.htm http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode15/usc_sec_15_00000078---m000-.html
I think they do listen. But please consider the civil liberty at stake with these issues. To protect personal liberty we never want to be unprotected by the Constitution in case the government went bad on us. The founders of the nation were trying to provide us with protections so that we can remain free of government control. They came from a Europe where govt. controlled and violated individual liberty routinely. In principle, the individual has power and freedom under the Constitution and our Bill of Rights protect us from the government seizing that power. The day things go sour in Washington you don't want to wake up in a dictatorship. "It will never happen here" goes under the category of 'Famous last words' I appreciate your patriotism and loyalty, but blind trust of the government leads to tyranny; and violations of Constitutional protections happen because of blind loyalty. Love your country but never trust anything other than the Constitution. That is the Supreme Law of the Land and its original intent was to protect our privacy, property and liberty.
its kinda hard to listen to everyone's conversations. maybe we can outsource it to india/china since they have a couple billion people without good jobs?
So this begs the question; if the telcos are subpoenaed before congress to testify in the NSA leak investigation, would they be perjuring themselves if they lied?
