The government, whether it is a Democrat, Republican, Whig, Democratic-Republican, or Federalist, is an extension of the people it governs, not the rulers of the people. The people are the rulers. By forgiving the Bush Administration and the compliant corporations, we are also forfeit our power. You might say 9/11 changed everything, but the only thing it changed was letting our power be stripped from us right in front of us. As Americans, we lost.
how much is *some* privacy? what is your stopping point? If you are the typical American . . .. I am really scared Rocket River Check the Sig.
"The privacy of all Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities," Bush said Saturday in his weekly radio address. "The government does not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval. We are not trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans." http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/13/bush.radio.ap/index.html Who believes him?
I surely don't The Admin is scary in a pre Nazi Germany kind of way we sliding a slippery slope to Facism Rocket River
I believe him. However, given that the NSA apparently can't be investigated, and corruption is not exactly foreign in our government, why on Earth would you believe that it wouldn't happen in the future? The problem with the program is not that it exists - the problem is that there are absolutely ZERO checks and balances on it.
Didn't take long... http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1147488931207760.xml&coll=7 Verizon is target in $1 billion suit for help to NSA Class action - A Beaverton man says the phone provider violated federal consumer protections Saturday, May 13, 2006 ANNE SAKER A Beaverton man filed a $1 billion federal class-action lawsuit Friday against Verizon Northwest Inc., saying telephone service provider violated his privacy by handing over his phone records to the National Security Agency. Darryl Hines said in court papers that the phone company gave his information to the spy agency without previously consulting its customers, previously obtaining permission or even advising its customers after the fact. Hines, through his Portland lawyer, Christopher Slater, filed the suit in U.S. District Court in Portland. He asked for the case to be certified as a class action to cover the estimated 1 million Verizon customers in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and California. Advertisement Hines' lawsuit says Verizon violated the consumer privacy protections in the federal Telecommunications Act. The lawsuit asks that Verizon be punished with statutory damages of $1,000 for each violation of the Telecommunications Act, plus $1 billion in punitive damages. The suit was filed a day after USA Today revealed that after the Sept. 11 attacks, the NSA asked Verizon Communications Inc., BellSouth Corp., AT&T Corp. and Qwest Communications International Inc. for millions of telephone records. Qwest, which serves Portland and much of the rest of Oregon, refused. But the other phone companies handed over the records without obtaining customers' permission or notifying them afterward, as required by federal law, the newspaper said. Joe Nacchio, the former Qwest chief executive under indictment on an unrelated matter, told The Oregonian on Friday that he rebuffed the NSA because he believed its warrantless requests for customer information violated federal telecommunications laws. Verizon, which provides phone service in Washington County and other parts of Oregon, cooperated with the NSA, according to USA Today. A Verizon spokesman in California, Jonathan Davies, said Friday he could not comment on litigation. However, he released a statement from Verizon's corporate headquarters in New York that declined to comment on its dealings with the NSA. The statement said Verizon strives to protect customers' privacy. "Verizon does not and will not provide any government agency unfettered access to our customer records or provide information to the government under circumstances that would allow a fishing expedition," the statement says. A similar suit seeking $4 billion in damages from Verizon was filed Friday in New York.
Unbelievable... "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin
I don't beleive that we will be pushing people into gas chambers anytime soon but I definately see people giving the government almost absolute power Rocket River
I don't. This whole thing is like an onion and I would bet everything that there are more layers that will soon be exposed. With every layer, it will become a little more uglier. And folks, it's not just that the government is tracking your phone calls... it's that they are doing it without any kind of oversight, without any kind of legal authority, and they are using the freaking NSA to do it. If everything is legal and if they are fierce protectors of our privacy, why not clear a couple of Senators and a couple of staff lawyers, let them investigate and report back in general terms? Or why not just stick with the FISA process and let a Judge provide the oversight? I think the answer is as frightening as it is clear.
How temporary would this security be? Is not letting the government knowing that you're calling terrorists an essential liberty? I'm not sure on either count, to tell you the truth...could go either way. It has the potential to be dangerous but I don't honestly think that I'm important enough for the NSA to track...and nobody I call is a terrorist.
I’m a little surprised that the general public isn’t more pissed off…I thought Americans valued their privacy/freedom to a great extent…am I mistaken?
Of course. Because no government official would ever use information for bad, right? I mean, LBJ would never threaten Senators or anything based on private information collected by Hoover's FBI or anything. Oh wait... No oversight + corrupt officials means anybody with any power is liable to be blackmailed if they called anyone that might be potentially publicly embarassing (not illegal or even unethical, mind you). You think that's a good thing?
It opens the door for abuse/misuse...you aren’t thinking about issues that revolve beyond your own environment.
No, of course not. Don't get me wrong. I think there should be a lot more oversight on issues such as this. However, many (not all) of the objections seem to be based on the absurd thought that the NSA cares about the mundane calls of everyday Americans. This just isn't true.
If one citizens rights are violated all of ours are. It doesn't matter whether they would be spying on somebody on this board or not. If they violate rights they are guilty of doing just that, whether it was against someone other than me, isn't the issue.
But that's not necessarily true. Remember when the NSA wiretap story came out, there were reports of NSA spying of environmental NGOs like Greenpeace and Sierra Club or some anti-war/pacifist groups. Its that type of abuse of power that people should legitimately fear. I think that in the case of civil liberties, it is always best to take a skeptical/cynical view of government intrusion. Although, I do agree that oversight is probably the biggest issue and should, at least theoretically, offset any of the concerns above.
