Precisely the problem. Spread the floor and face him up and it's over. He can't defend perimeter quickness. His defensive contributions are all wrapped up around anticipation and physicality. When he has to straight up defend a playmaker that can shoot and can't cheat or switch he's done. Great guy. I love him. Would love to keep him as a knife off the bench but we're not built out at the top of the rotation to be able to keep him. We need to trade him in combination with other assets to get a better front of the rotation piece.
Please do us all a favor and show us specific examples of all these that you claim consistently over the span of the last 7 games that resulted in negative impact
Carefully follow Beverley's defense, all of the things I've just mentioned is true. The sad thing is even when he contests the shots, it doesn't really bother the shooters because his reach is short. He can definitely be a defensive liability out there, and that is not who we want as Harden's back court partner.
Oh, you mean the stat that Beverley ranks #4 last year among All NBA PGs. Maybe your numbers are scientifically too small a sample. Also, You mean the stat that ranks Beverley significantly higher than Avery Bradley (-1.55) right now. You mean the stat that has Avery Bradley at #77 in the league for just Shooting Guards, and #51 last year when he was 1st Team All Defense Oh, and keep leaving out the part about Bev's +8 Net Rating, since it doesn't fit your narrative.
Oh so you mean you got nothing to prove your case, your strategy is just to nitpick with any data or evidence that I bring up. Great attitude. Still didn't address the point that when a player strictly known for his defense posts both good ORtg and DRtg, it makes much more sense to attribute the latter to that specific player, not the former, especially when he is playing alongside a player like Harden. Same thing applies in converse, when a player like Harden posts both great ORtg and DRtg, you don't attribute that DRtg to Harden's good defense. That's just common sense.
Well I respectively disagree 100% sir. While your logic is sound in premise, it's not what fits this team directly. Bev is NOT a great defender or floor spacer, so he doesn't put the team as a whole in a good position to win ball games. That's a fallacy that he has sold you and the coach on obviously. Bev doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, BECAUSE HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE WITH THE BALL IN HIS HANDS. Harden was having the year he was having WHEN BEV WASN'T PLAYING AND GORDON WAS MOSTLY STARTING. Go look at the numbers. Since Bev has been back, Harden's numbers are steadily decreasing. Why? Because the starting lineup isn't as good. Just like when MDA tried out Brewer to start games for a couple of games, and then realized that wasn't working, so he put Gordon back in and our offense and great starts picked back up. Gordon's #1 strength not just scoring, he is a capable defender as well, and posting better numbers than Bev is this year. He is a better ball handler, driver, shooter and everything else except rebounder than Bev, but Gordon still rebounds the ball also very decently for a SG. Gordon is more important in the starting lineup with Harden because it opens the lane more just like Anderson does. Bev doesn't open the lane for Harden at all because he has a slow release 3 pointer, and is not a finisher to drive the ball in the lane off the pass like Gordon can do. Bev is fools gold, and should not be a starter on any team with high desires to be a top team. Bev should be coming off the bench and limited to about 14 minutes, IMHO. And I think it does matter to Gordon if he starts or not. Sure he will say otherwise to be a team player, but just listen to what Murph said last night about being a players and playing time/starter, etc. Gordon wants to start, would be more happy staring, and should be a starter on this team. Bring in a better player than Bev to start along Harden, and I will be okay with Gordon off the bench. Putting Gordon on the bench just because your bench sucks, is a bad coaching decision. You put your players in roles that helps that team win more games and to be more efficient. Gordon in the starting line up playing 34 to 36 minutes per game does that instead of bringing him off the bench in only about 30 minutes per game. It's not Rocket Science.
If you call me nitpicking stats ... then you are cherry picking stats. You are just not willing to discuss with someone challenging your stats, is all. If they are scientific stats, then explain why Bev was ranked #4 last year in your precious DRPM. Just because they are called stats doesn't make it scientific. They are limited to box score numbers, for godsakes. Coaches don't use these stats, only fans do. Further, you can't use them in one instance, then ignore them when Bev was ranked #4 last year, and has a +8 NetRtg this year. --------------------------------------------------------------- This is every bit as Scientific, and how coaches measure it: If you were willing to actually discuss Bev's role was last night, I could show you many possessions of Bev playing very solid defense away from the ball. We would start with how he spent an inordinate amount of time fronting Gobert successfully on PnRs ... which became his assignment. We had to switch to that defense, because until we did, no one could stay on Gobert in PnRs, and Utah was killing us. Then they killed us with 3s as well, when Bev wasn't assigned to the perimeter.--------------------------------------------------------------- Often the best perimeter defenders (like Avery Bradley) have multiple assignments away from the ball, and because of that, unscientific defensive stats do not accurately capture their effectiveness. DRPM is not scientific. It's an interesting algorithm that Coaches do not use.
yeah, we should totally trust D'antoni's opinion on defense because that is his bread and butter. LMAO. I never said DRPM is 100% accurate or scientific, but just laid out all the evidence that I can gather that seems to point to one undeniable conclusion - that Beverley has been a defensive liability out there since his return. You're trying to misdirect this discussion into that same, boring topic about eye-test vs stats, but the funny thing is even the eye-test results don't seem to bear out your conclusion. If you think Beverley has been fine on defense just by watching his last 5 games, you clear don't know anything about basketball. Again, you have yet to provide any evidence in favor of your position. All you're doing is nitpicking with my evidence, that is not how you engage in a discussion, sir.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because based on this team's personnel and the way the current MDA system operates, the balance of the lineups is pretty much where it should be. It's absolutely redundant to just have all your best offensive players all together throughout the course of a game. Even the best teams in the league stagger significant amount of minutes without their best players all together while one or the other sits for a good amount of time
I'm curious to know of how many players in the NBA can Beverley stop or slow! in 8-9 games straight against GSW: Curry just so skilled for him,Livingston is too tall ,Barbosa is too quick but he is still a defensive specialist for some intangible reasons even when he can't stop J. Barea. He is a decent bench player at best
What kind of response is that? I propose viewing Bev's defense in the Utah game scientifically, like coaches do. And you just give attitude back. And after blaming me for having an "attitude" to "nitpick" your stats. I see you don't want to actually talk. You just want confirmation. Oh, btw, I just looked up Tony Allen's ORtg and DRtg like you suggested. Sorry to report that BOS's ORtg was significantly worse when he was on the court. He's a Net negative or neutral vs Boston's very good + pt differential. And he's up and down randomly with MEM. So, we can't really use him to explain why Bev's NetRtg tracks over double to the Rockets pt differential. Maybe it's because neither stats really says much scientifically for individual players, like they do for the team. Have fun with your scientific experiment.
Uh, didn't you already provide video of highlights and told us to watch carefully? You're bouncing around with the rules, man. Well, since you agree DRPM is not very accurate, then we try to do what coaches do. Video analysis is not an eye-test...it is what coaches do. Stats like DRPM is not what coaches do, it is what Fans do who don't have the time to look at video for a living. Which one is more scientific? I can actually provide that video of the Utah game, so we can examine what Bev's assignments were per play, and how effective he was. Let's call this the @Jontro test. You don't look at stats to judge the effectiveness of p*rn Stars. You do exhaustive video analysis research.
It's the most sane, reasonable response; you should only trust the opinion of someone who has a legitimate authority on the topic. D'antoni is not an authority figure on defense, mind you. You're now just trying to derail this discussion into anything but defense, I've already addressed the point about NetRtg - that you don't attribute good ORtg to a 'defense specialist' player known for lack of offense, especially when he is playing alongside a player like Harden. You only take into consideration his DRtg because defense is the area where he as a player most likely has the greatest impact. Geezus, how many times before this simple, common-sense reasoning gets through your head.
Have you attended any analytics conference lately? Coaches do in fact pay attention to the stats, only a dinosaur of a coach would solely rely on video analysis. But that's besides the point, you still don't have any proof that Beverley has been a good defender this year, just admit it. Even if you can find one game where he was decent, that doesn't prove anything. That's why it's so hard to argue with the way you're going about it, unless you have the time to compile and edit the clips of all of Beverley's plays on defense throughout the entire season and provide your take on it. Even then, it would be a highly subjective and personal opinion, open for public debate.
I love how some people overreact when the Rockets lose a game.Yes,coming into the Jazz game the Rockets were playing very well, and as a lifelong Rockets fan, I understand how easy it is to get wrapped up in the success so far, especially after the disaster that was last season. However, it's important to keep your expectations in check. I don't think any objective fan here expects the Rockets to seriously contend with teams like the Warriors, Spurs, Clips, Cavs, and even the Jazz (who i think are highly underrated) around. Therefore, starting pointless threads like questioning whether Beverly should be on the team (especially considering that we are 5-2 in the games he's played in, is beyond silly. Is Bev some amazing player that should be considered untouchable? Absolutely NOT. But to act like he's some scrub after a road loss to a team that's arguably better and is absurd. As constructed the Rockets are NOT a top team. It's important to win the games we should win, and when we beat a good team, take it as a bonus. That said, I expect the Rockets to still be a very good team in the regular season. I think we will win a lot of games and be highly entertaining in doing so. That in and of itself is something we Rockets fans can look forward to, but again, let's be realistic about what this roster can achieve, especially after we win or lose a game.
Simply adding a plus individual defender does not do anything to help team defense. They are totally different things. Team defense is way more important than individual defense. Our team defense has been trash all season, outside of a half here and there.
