Yao Ming was healthy in the playoffs in 04/05, but the team missed playoffs in 05/06 and Yao was not 100% in 06/07. Yao in 08/09 was a lot healthier than he was during the last 2 years of the Van Gundy era until his injury vs the Lakers at the end.
no he wouldn't - it would mean he would have to completely alter his natural tendency to a higher paced, high post-offensive game plan to cater to a slower paced one featuring a plodding, half court low post player who can be easily neutralized with a few defensive adjustments.
not 100% in 06/07----------then at what percentage? 92.5% or 73.6%? a lot healthier...............any data on that? how much? How healthier can Yao be if he is 3 years older after multiple injuries?
JVG was way to controlling and wouldn't allow players to make mistakes or vary from his ideals. Players were not allowed to react on the court too teams sets if it took JVG out of his plan or comfort zone, basically playing like robots. Everyone knew what was coming, the fans, the opposing team and everyone was ready. JVG made it hard on himself and the team. I understand he wanted to run the highest percentage shot, but it was like pounding square pegs in round holes,(hard to watch). Granted JVG had one of the most effective defenses in the game, but too the detriment of his offense. We never got easy buckets or fast breaks, there was not much slashing or cutting to the basket. Opposing defenses were set and they knew what was coming. We very rarely went to the line, he very rarely when deep too his bench, we vary rarely had 4 or even 5 guys in double figures. He ate up the clock resulting in very few baskets, again "hard to watch". Then he never liked going with youth, always older vets on the down side that he normally had connects with from NY, yuck!! So the Rockets had older guys on the down side trying to stretch out their careers resulting in invaluable contracts and players other teams really didn't want. With his defense first approach, he brought in players the were stronger on defense than offense. Again, "Hard to watch". You can't' give JVG a free pass for the talent he had, those were the players he wanted and if they weren't he had more than enough time to get the player he wanted. Personally I don't believe Tracy would have been here as long if Rick would have been here sooner. Not that JVG believed that Tracy was a better defensive but that he though Yao and Tracy was all the offense he needed. Rick on the other hand makes things easy on his team, doesn't need superstars, develops young players that helps their values. He knows that putting the ball in the basket wins games and balance is essential. He's not on the court, so he let's players look for opportunities to score and adjust to defenses. Everything opposite of what I just said about JVG. This is a no brainer... Rick by a long shot.
You forgot to include 09/10: McGrady 6 games, Yao 0 games. Actually, if you look at the total of their tenures: Yao 03-07 (JVG): 8710 minutes, 267 games; average per season: 2178 minutes, 67 games Yao 07-10 (RA): 4631 minutes, 132 games: average per season: 1544 minutes, 44 games McGrady 04-07 (JVG): 7460 minutes, 196 games; average per season: 2487 minutes, 65 games McGrady 07-10 (RA): 3466 minutes, 107 games: average per season: 1155 minutes, 36 games I think it is a fact that both Yao and McGrady on average had far less healthy time on the floor under Adelman than under JVG. I am not sure if comparing Adelman's first year with JVG's last year is fair, although you can argue that the rosters were the closest. But it takes time for the players to adjust to the new system. It's interesting that people would say Adelman benefited from JVG's defense in his first year, yet do not acknowledge that Adelman also "benefited" from JVG's offense, or lack of it. I think the most telling of all is last season. Without both stars, Adelman still managed to play an "average" offense. Like I pointed out to Sam, last season's roster did not have a lot of offensively gifted players. I really doubt that JVG could have gotten that group to that much offensive production.
So, like when we had this argument last month, you're saying a group of Scola-Landry-Martin-Brooks-Lowry - hell, even David Andersen who was a relatively productive offensive player- et al. is inferior to a group of Rafer-Juwan-Stromile Swift-David Wesley-Mutumbo etc? That's just simply not true on either a gross or efficiency or actual basis
Talk about twisting the facts. First, are you sure "Rafer-Juwan-Stromile Swift-David Wesley-Mutumbo" was JVG's lineup? Even without looking it up, anyone can see that Swift and Howard played the same position. Second, you keep bringing up Martin in Adelman's roster, but in fact he only played 24 games after the trade. Why did you not respond to my point about Brooks-Scola-Landry-Budinger being the only offensively talented players on last season's rotation? Please tell me which starting lineup has more offensive fire power: 06/07 Yao Howard Battier McGrady Alston 09/10 Hayes Scola Battier Ariza Brooks
Umm, yeah, so do Scola and Landry. And so do various other player - the point is they're all on the team and on the floor during that era. Come on - You're not that dense. Are you? Because that looks a whole lot better than Juwan Howard and Rafer Alston being your two best offensive players. Which is what actually happened on many nights in 2006. Yawn - so you're comparing a fully stacked JVG team (that maybe suited up 42 times together) and that won 50-something games to an injury-ravaged Adelman lottery team...what is the point of this? To tell me that Yao is better on offense than Hayes? WOW - big reveal there. Got anything else brah? The fact of the matter is that you're still making the ri-joke-ulous case taht Adelman should be excused from producing an elite offense, because he has been saddled Scola, Landry, Artest, Brooks, etc and thus has the same surrounding cast as JVG. Laughable.
Considering injuries, 42 wins was a major acomplishment for us. Also, our 14th best offense is still better than any offense w/ JVG as coach (and thats WITH Yao and Tmac). Just thought I'd chime in
You're right, it's 1 whole ranking better.... ..and it's also a few notches better than any Offense that Adelman ever put up WITH Yao and Tmac. What does that tell you?
Exactly how many night? McGrady played 71 games that season, 36 mpg. Very convenient to say that Howard and Alston were the two best offensive players. Laughable.
How is this even a discussion. JVG has produced top rated defenses in NY and HOU but RA has also had top rated defenses in both SAC and HOU. Where they really differ is the fact that RA is a proven offensive coach while JVG is not even sure offense is necessary for an NBA game. This really is not close. RA by a mile.
Wrong. In 2006 he played 47 games. Yao chipped in a mighty 57. Woohoo. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2006.html Why, because they were most nights? THis argument boils down to what idiots like DD have been claiming for months now, that a 42 win trip to Secaucus with an average offense and a horrid defense, sans Yao, is proof positive of .........what exactly? I don't even know. I do know it's nothing I will rmemeber in 5 years.
JVG's first year with the Rockets, with basically Rudy T's roster, produced basically the same as Rudy the previous year. When Rudy took over for Chaney in mid-season, the Rockets record was basically the same before and after the firing, when the rosters were "closest". By Carl Herrera's logic, all Rockets coaches are created equal under more or less the exact same circumstances. So there really is no point to compare coaches. They only perform differently with different players, or with players improving/declining with time. Why did Rudy succeed where Chaney failed? Because Hakeem turned into the Dream and we got Will Smith and an alien. Why did JVG succeed where Rudy failed? Because we got T-Mac and Yao entered his prime. Why did Adelman succeed despite T-Mac/Yao being more injured? Because he received Morey's players rather than CD's. You can use this logic forever with just about any coach in the NBA. In the end, comparing coaches is more or less impossible as fans because we don't have access to the inner workings of the team. Would players like Landry and Scola have blossomed under JVG? Would Adelman have been able to find good role players during the Dawson era? Since we're all dealing with hypotheticals and inexact comparisons, so there's pretty much no right or wrong answer to anything. There are too many lines of thinking that all "makes sense" but end up with vastly different conclusions.
I agree with your overall stance in this thread. I mean, we are talking about facts after all. But what is the final conclusion? That Adelman is overrated offensively? How/where do you rate him? Personally I think Van Gundy and Adelman are both great coaches. As far as overall schemes Jeff is much more meticulous and detail-oriented, where as Rick has a general direction, but lassiez-faire otherwise. Jeff's attention to detail is what gives him the edge on defense. After all, the most important aspect to defense is preparation. Adelman relies more on his personnel. Inheriting Jeff's squad his first year, he was able to sustain a top tier defense. Without the personnel, not so much- last year. On the offensive end Jeff's approach seems to be tailored to maximize the strengths of superstars, where as Rick is more team oriented. All else equal, the difference in approach has been irrelevant, since as you have pointed out, the offensive efficiency has been similar. But I do believe that Rick's approach bodes better in sustaining an injury to your star player, since not as much reliance is placed on any 1 or 2 cogs in the machine- in the short term. Obviously this is not sustainable for a full season, especially if you lose both main cogs like last year. The talent deficit still won out in the end. Thoughts?
I was talking about the 06/07 season when McGrady played 71 games and Yao 55. I haven't even mentioned Luther Head who was one of the top 3pt shooters in the league that season. And they produced about the same offensive results as Adelman's 09/10 team. Why do you want to bring up the 05/06 season when our offense ranked 29th? That season is irrelevant to our discussion. But it is convenient for you to "prove" that JVG did have inferior offensive players. Pick two similar offensive seasons and compare the players on the team. That's how it should be done and that's what I did.
Gundy ball was horrific to watch. I loved our defense, but are offense was more than predictable. If Yao or Tracy didn't have a huge game we lost. Also he probablt took years of Yao's career and pretty much ended Tracys with his grind it out Gundy ball. Also JVG refused to develop young talent and probably was a big reason we didn't draft Rondo and other young ballers. We had interst in I remember VanGundy saying something along the lines as he would not be a good point guard in this league. Adelman all day.
