My 2cents worth. Harden is an unbelievable player, but he's not a leader of men. Unless someone ie a strong coach, can bring that out of him, then I think we need to give up having that expectation from him. That's not necessarily a bad thing other than we need to add someone who fits with Harden who can be the team leader and still let Harden be the star.
Htownballer38, getting to know teammates better outside of basketball doesn't mean anything about him being a bad leader as you called him. He became a better leader. Taking over games on his own bc he didn't trust his teammates also doesn't mean anything bc he was the best option and had no talent on the roster that he could trust. Whenever he played in All star games or Olympics, he had talent all around him and he always put on a show getting his own while also racking up assists. If you said he became one of the greatest leaders ever under Phil, then that is fine because he wasn't that in his early days. Instead you said "Earlier in MJ career he was all about Michael Jordan and if anybody had something to say about. Then it would end in a fight. None of his teammates before Jackson got hired as the coach didn't like MJ period." That is completely made up. You won't find a single story about MJ fighting people b/c he was about all and only himself as you say. The altercations he got in were because of his Drill Sgt/Drill Instructor type of leadership, not lack of. There are different ways to lead. Phil taught him 1 way that worked out. He just wanted everyone to give 100% like he did. Sure those kind of leaders are hard and can be seen as assholes, not everyone responds to that type of leadership like in Kobe's case, but they can also make some of the best leaders. With the right talent and personalities around him, he could have remained the same type of leader and still won rings. You're trying to make him look like he was some lazy bum that got mad when people told him what to do or something. "NONE" of his teammates or coaches before Phil liked him either apparently. Your whole argument is false and based off of a few stories of MJ heated arguments, shove matches or punching teammates, most notably Steve Kerr. The problem is every one of those incidents happened with Phil and they were already champions and MJ was already the leader he grew to be. There are no stories of this kind about young MJ before Phil. MJ or Phil even said IIRC in a story about Phil asking MJ to speak with young Kobe about leadership and Kobe trash talked him telling him he would beat him. Either it was Phil or Mj that said something along the lines of MJ's humble approach to greats of the past that he respected and he would have never behaved like Kobe. Here are the incidents you want to use as examples of MJ being a poor leader and teammate and player to coach when he was young. All of which are on championship teams and for being a tough leader, but a leader nonetheless: Horace Grant: “Our practices were so intense because Phil (Jackson), the mastermind behind everything, would put M.J. on the second team,” Grant said. “Me and Scottie (Pippen) would be on the first team. And then, being competitive like (Jordan) was, man ... unreal, unreal. And, you know, of course, punches got thrown, many fights. I’m just so happy that social media wasn’t (around) back then.” One of the radio hosts asked Grant if Jordan would target “little white boys” in practice. Steve Kerr told one famous story of a time he was punched in the face by Jordan during practice. "No, he beat up a big white boy. Will Perdue. I mean, I hate to tell the story, but Will and I are still good friends,” Grant said. “Typical Phil, running this play, and Will set an illegal pick on M.J. M.J. said, ’Will, don’t do it again.’ ‘What are you talking about?’ That’s Will. M.J. says, 'All right.' Phil says, 'Run it again.' "So naturally, we ran it two more times. Illegal pick. M.J. walks up to Will — boom. Lit him up. It was over.” “We grabbed Will — you’re not going to hurt M.J.,” Grant said. “M.J. can take care of himself, but, you know. ... So, the next day on the plane, Will gets on the plane with a huge shiner.” Grant said he and Jordan often got into verbal spats, but Grant never hit Jordan because, “if M.J. goes out, the Bulls go out." I remember articles being written by Kobe fans who twisted this story into MJ beating up Purdue for "playing hard'' and MJ didn't like that. Haha..those articles are the ones i'm thinking you read. Steve Kerr: ‘I disagreed with him one time,’ Kerr said with a chuckle. ‘I think he punched me in the face.’ That disagreement happened during a scrimmage at training camp when Kerr took offense to something Jordan said, and he didn’t refrain from expressing his true feelings. ‘It was one of the best things that ever happened for me, I needed to stand up and go back at him, I think I earned some respect. But we have a great relationship ever since… you gotta prove it and then once you prove it, you’re fine.’ But, let me guess...you read an article that said MJ punched Kerr for playing too hard defensively on MJ and MJ didn't like it so he just punched him. Cartwright Incident: When the Bulls let Charles Oakley(Michaels best friend) go and brought in Bill Cartwright, Jordan resented the loss of his friend and took it out on Cartwright, calling him “Medical Bill” and intentionally throwing impossible-to-handle passes at him in practice to draw attention to what he perceived to be his bad hands. Bill pulled Mj to the side and told him he'll never play basketball again if ever did that stuff again b/c he'll break MJ's legs. Here is one from pre Phil Days that maybe you liken to him being a bad leader and teammate: 'He's the most viciously competitive player I've ever seen. That's what makes him, I think, the greatest player ever. He has practically ruined [reserve forward] Rodney McCray for us.' When the two players are on opposite teams in scrimmages, the source says, "[ Jordan] is in Rodney's face, screaming, 'You're a loser! You've always been a loser!' Rodney can hardly put up a jumper now.’ Another one from championship days: In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face. ‘I told him, “I’m not as enamored with you as these other guys. I’ve got some rings too,”’ Parish recalled. ‘At that point he told me, “I’m going to kick your ass.” I took one step closer and said, “No, you really aren’t.” After that he didn’t bother me.’ Literally every story you will find all points to the things we all already know. MJ was insanely competitive and pushed people in ways today's sissy society would never have stood for. It worked. It weeded out the weak and the strong only became stronger by standing up to his high pressure and intimidating leadership. I wish i could say more about Akeem, but since the Rockets weren't really in the spotlight, there's only a few stories of Akeem being short tempered, but never anything about being a bad teammate. You don't hear stories of teammates or coaches trashing either Hakeem or MJ for their way of leadership. I don't doubt Akeem was every bit as competitive as MJ and that's probably why they both have infinite respect for each other and both being each others favorite player.
Only an idiot would compare a guard to a center across different eras. Or someone with very little basketball knowledge. You have this uncanny ability to twist what people say to fit your absurd narratives. "Derp, Olajuwon > McGrady" - 99.99% of people would agree with that statement. What exactly is your point and what's its relation to this thread? You've gone from a respected "99er" to a ****posting troll in the span of a couple of years. No one cares about McGrady, Jeremy Lin, or your thoughts on clutch city. What are your thoughts on this *current* team? I've never seen you analyze any aspect of this team, just constant **** posts - I've no idea how you have the time for this nonsense. Clutch - if you read this, please think about implementing a *past* Rocket section where people can talk about McGrady/Yao/Olajuwon/Moses etc. The vast majority of the time that comparisons are made b/w past players and current players it's filled to the brim with ****.
Should the title be phrased: "Worse leader: Tracy McGrady or James Harden" Current title gives people a false sense that they might have be good leaders
You can compare leaders and leadership, that's not position specific. Somebody tried to discredit Dream's leadership in that series. Apparently you care enough to reply. if you don't reply, then you don't care. I didn't make this thread or the lin thread. I've said that Harden is a better leader than McGrady cause he actually led the team somewhere. Harden is on our current team. What other questions do you have? why 99ers rule the world?
The Rockets were definitely in the spotlight in 86 when there's like 8 channels on tv and the nba was on CBS . Everybody saw the Lakers/Rockets because the Lakers were the defending champion and had Magic/Kareem/Worthy and coached by Pat Riley. That's 4 hall of famers. Tmac played against Dallas and Utah twice. How many hall of famers combined is that? Dirk and who else? there's youtube for those who have not witnessed <iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pHB7RC6FIc4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Every single thread I've seen you post in, somehow - McGrady, Jeremy Lin, or Clutch City is involved. This is a recurrent theme. I have McGrady in my *username* and it's been years since I've posted anything regarding him. Just let it go, it's a new era. How exactly can someone discredit Hakeem Olajuwon on clutchfans of all places? This is home base for the Rockets. There is no one here that doubts his greatness. It would be like talking **** about Jordan in Chicago. It doesn't happen. The main issue I have is the fact that it's your schtick. Seeing the words McGrady/Lin = the tin signal. 90% of your 48,000 posts involve former Rockets. Again, what are your thoughts on this current team?
Non championship or NBA Finals leadership ranking: 1. Barkley 2. Ron Artest 3. Yao 4. Steve Francis 5. Tmac
This thread says McGrady on it. Go ahead and tell Clutch that I'm posting on the subject of these threads. Clutch City is infinite. If you love Clutch City you would understand. This was his response when I said Dream was a leader when he took the Rockets to the Finals in 86. Go search for my thoughts in the search feature, I post plenty of things. I post plenty of stuff on Harden. You know who James Harden is right?
Hes got a point tin, i have yet to this date see your input about anything on current teams. All you do is defend Rockets history.....on a Houston board....
I'm not going to look up my own posts, i have too many . Besides, I'd rather talk about the subject which is the point. On this thread people have chosen to ignore that harden has already played 22 more playoff games than tmac did in his career.
Do not be a hypocrite and talk about the past when that was the thing that you held against tof Does Harden look like he will still produce? Tonight he will, la is where he wants to be...
What's this topic again? Leadership? How about this curry is a better leader than both of them What last year when we went the conference finals? Sorry didn't know that was ancient history.
tinman, harden in the playoffs last yr. didnt "lead" the team to the wcf. as the best player on the team, he merely had the best stats. that's pretty much it. agree?
A lot of posters who thought it would be cool to hate on Tmac because they thought Tinman would like them are quietly admitting it now. Harden is a mental midgit. With Tmac you knew your best player was going to show up and elevate his game when push came to shove.
Yes Harden is a bad defensive player. However, I'd rather have a guy who is durable and doesn't have the reputation to leave organizations. Harden shows up every game, not every other game or 'training with Tim Grover' The good outweighs the bad
Nobody hates Tmac. They just hate how fans romanticize a player who only played 20 playoff games, got one coach fired, never passed a playoff series, and demanded a trade after the head coach won't let him play more than 20 minutes after he volunteered to have surgery that he didn't inform the fans or organization about. "it's on me".
