I still wake up in a cold sweat some nights... I can't explain it... I'll be sleeping peacefully and all of a sudden I hear "Barkley for three!"...
I never meant to imply (and I don't believe that I did) that the Rocket's trio was three of the greatest talents ever to play together. I was simply responding to what I thought your point was, that it was unusual for three 1st overall picks to be on the same roster. The fact that you included Tina Thompson, Yao and Francis in your post lead me to believe that you were only talking about draft position, not ability. If you're simply talking about the three best players, then Yao and Steve don't come close deserving to be in the conversation, so why would you list them? The salary cap makes keeping stars together more difficult. The old Celtic and Laker teams were loaded with Hall of Famers, you're not going to find that today. The closest you'll get is the current Lakers. Looks like I was giving you credit for pointing out a fairly rare situation...too bad you clarified yourself. PS No way was Cassell the best point guard in Rocket's history.
I hear ya! Sorry about that... I listed Yao and Francis just for comparsion reasons. It gives a good measure how far we are from a real dynasty, or at least why thoes other teams dominated soo much. Not because they are of the same caliber. As far as a "pointing out a fairly rare situation" for the Lakers picks. Yes it was rare. But in more than just one way. They were 1st picks, plus they were actaully HOF players that won championships. I'd say that's a good reason to say they could be considered the "Best Big Three in NBA History." Of couse, there's always others like the Celtics and Bulls lineups. About Cassell. Who's the best PG in Rocket history, then? Steve Harris? Buck Johnson? Who?
Steve Harris was a 6'5" shooting guard out of Tulsa that couldn't put the ball on the floor at all. Buck Johnson was a 6'7" Small Forward out of Alabama. Neither of those guys were point guards. As far as the best PG in Rocket's history, the answer is pretty simple: Steve Francis. Regardless of what you think of Francis, it's pretty hard to make an argument that the Rockets ever had a better PG. Cassell was a key role player for both of the championship runs and he's turned into a good PG, but his three years here were pretty average. He averaged 10.09 pts/game, 4.19 Asts/game, 2 TO/game and shot 42.95%. If you're purely considering their Time with the Rockets, I'd say the John Lucas was better than Cassell. As a Rocket, Lucas averaged 11.43 pts/game, 7.26 ast/game, 44.63% and 2.26 TO/game. Take out Lucas' third stint with the Rockets when he was too old, and those numbers are even higher. Without a doubt nobody ever ran the team better than Lucas. Lucas running the show with Ralph and Hakeem was a beautiful thing. He threw the best alley-oops ever and he pushed the ball and forced us to run. The other obvious choice would be Calvin Murphy. Later in his career, they moved him to the off guard spot, but initially he played the point. He had a couple of seasons where he averaged over 20 ppg while handing out over 7 asst/game. He was also a 48% career shooter. Heck, if you just want to go by numbers, Allen Levell was at least as good as Cassell. Levell had a career average of 9.55 pts/game, 4.77 Ast/game, 1.89 TO/game and shot 44.99% from the floor. Those numbers are almost identical to Cassell's Rocket numbers, but Levell was 10 times the defender that Cassell has ever been and he had a lot more longevity with the Rockets. We could also consider the guy that started in front of Cassell...Kenny Smith. Smith averaged 12.63 pts/game, 5.25 ast/game, 2.09 TO/game and shot 49% from the floor . He also hit some clutch 3 pointers in the 2 championship runs.
Trust me, you are preaching to the choir about Calvin...as a shooter....though... I didn't include Calvin Murphy in my list because of his SG production and how the Rox used him. He was the best shooter we've ever as as far as guards are concerned. Now, back to the definition of "best PG." I like to analyze their whole game which includes their stats, their intelligence on the court, their ability to hit clutch shots, to lead, and last but not least to help win championships. All those things...stats are important. But they don't tell the whole story. The reason I didn't pick Lucas was because his career really never took off. He was just getting started. Although, he was the best pure PG we've had in terms of seeing the court and running the court. But he never really had a long career. As far as Cassell stats. I don't see only stats with him. Sure, he only had three years with us. But his quality as a PG is excellent. All the things you want in a PG; low turnovers, good court vision and still an ability to score. I saw those abilities even when he was only getting 20 minutes a game w/the Rox. Incredible talent even as a rookie with limited minutes. Moves like Calvin, but assist like Lucas. I've never seen a guy be able to do BOTH those things for the Rox with such confidence. Such ease. And a rookie to boot! Francis has yet to write his history. You can equate "best=no championship" all you want. I will not. Not until he proves it. Talk to me after the play-offs. Then we'll see. I want production. Not talk. Oh, and since you were just using stats to determine your definition of "best"...let me point out a few things... I'm surprised that you said, "....Cassell....he's turned into a good PG." Lets see, you definition of JUST "good PG" is... Sam Cassell: FG% = 49.5 3FG% = 42.4 FT% = 88.1 APG = 7.8 TO = 2.7 PPG = 21.1 I'd say that's better than just "good." Yet you are eagerly able to conclude that Francis is "best?" What about things like shooting, turnovers (court vision) and leadership. And maybe leading by example...i.e. not missing planes. Ok, ok....yes I'll admit...Francis is the "best" dunking/athletic PG we've had...
The reason I didn't pick Lucas was because his career really never took off. He was just getting started. Although, he was the best pure PG we've had in terms of seeing the court and running the court. But he never really had a long career. Uhh...you might want to check the stats on that one. We're talking about their time with the Rockets and Lucas played here a lot longer than Cassell. As far as Cassell stats. I don't see only stats with him. Sure, he only had three years with us. But his quality as a PG is excellent. All the things you want in a PG; low turnovers, good court vision and still an ability to score. Cassell's Ast/TO ratio is right a 2:1, that's not really a low turnover total. All of those things that you are praising Cassell for are also true of Lucas and Smith. They both scored more, had more assists, similar or better ast/to ratio and shot a better percentage. Oh, and since you were just using stats to determine your definition of "best"...let me point out a few things... Since when is saying that a player is "good" taken as an insult? Cassell has become a good PG that's true, but Cassell's stats in his 11th or so season have no bearing on how he played for the Rockets 8 years ago. Bottom line is that Cassell was a bench player when he was with the Rockets. His job was to come in and spark the offense. If he didn't get it done, then he went back to the bench. That's a big difference than being the guy that is responsible for running the offense every night. He had no pressure on him at all. He did a great job as a role player, but he was hardly "the man" with the Rockets. Cassell was clutch for us, but no more so than Horry or Elie, neither of whom I consider all time greats for the Rockets. As far as Francis, I really don't want to get into one of these inane Francis bashing threads, so we'll have to disagree about him.
If you're talking best 3 then I am biased to teh 80's: Bird, McHale and Parish Kareem, Magic, Worthy Dr J, Moses, Sir Charles But if you're asking the best 3 to play together at any point in their career I think you have to look at this years Lakers: Kobe, Shaq, Mailman, Payton Granted Mailman and Payton are past their primes (as is possibly Shaq) but there are 4 hall of famers playing together. Not sure when the last time that has happened.
Ah, we were talking about talent + tenure... we were on two different wave lengths... Well, career wise...Cassell will be the best PG that we let get away (traded). Smith talks a lot on TNT. But most know who the better PG is. Barkley was right. Smith talks his game up more and more, the older he gets. Smith was a good dependable PG. Never great. So was Lucas, but he could have become something special. So, you are right. Cassell never finished his career (with higher stats) with the Rox. But he will become the best we ever let get away. I guess the reason I was looking at it that way was because I realized his skills before Sam was traded. There were things he did that no other PG guard could do; even with limited minutes. So, when I said, "the best PG we ever HAD." That's the way I was thinking about it -- HAD. Lucas was the best pure PG we had even within his small stint with us. Even Francis 21pts/6ast wasn't better than Lucas's 11.5/7. Not as a PG. Too many TO/and lack of court vision for SF. Sorry... As far as Francis, I really don't want to get into one of these inane Francis bashing threads, so we'll have to disagree about him Heh heh...don't defend him. Let his play on the court defend itself. Just wait for the rest of the season to finish...you'll see. Yao will take the reigns from him unless Francis improves his over-all PG game.
Bulls don't count because they didn't face the level of high caliber championship play that the 80's team faced. Who were the Bull's rivals? LOL
Cassell had this unstoppable in between shot. And Dream didn't like it many times when Sam shot too much, but he was okay with it other times. Sam is great now, but he wasn't the complete player back then. He was an offense booster, and side attraction to the Dream show (even though Cassell did singlehandedly rule the 3rd quater of game 7 Phoenix 1995).
aelliott, Agree with everything except Francis. Lucas was the best PG ever to wear a Rocket uniform. Murphy 2nd best (finished 2nd in the league in assists 1973-74 with 7.4 asst per game) I am suprised you left off another very good PG/SG in Rocket history, Mike Newlin. 8 years as a Rocket he averaged 4.2 assist per game, 14.4 PPG and 4 rpg. Numbers just as good, if not better than Sam.
Newlin was a 2 guard. He was a good passer, great shooter and an all-around intelligent player...but not a PG.
Hey, how about the '87 Lakers, 4 players that were 1st pick overall: Jabbar ('69), Magic ('79), Worthy ('82), Mychal Thompson ('78).
Newlin did play PG. After the '73-'74 season the Rockets wanted Murphy to score more so they moved him to SG and Newlin took over the PG duties.
I've gotta disagree with you on that one. Murphy didn't move to the shooting guard until Lucas arrived. Here's a quote from NBA.com. I don't ever remember Newlin playing the point. John Lucas joined the Rockets for the 1976–77 season and became the starting point guard, with Murphy moving to the shooting guard slot. http://www.nba.com/history/players/murphy_bio.html
