Typical. You refute things...that I'm not even talking about. Did I say Cleveland was expecting a Big Ben better then his Chicago days? Did I say he needed to surpass Gooden's offensive output? Care to address your take that the Pistons were complacent? I guess not. You're new argument is that Lebron's heroics were a fluke, and because of that the Cavs won't win this time. Who knows? I'm not writing off the Pistons the way you write off the Cavs. By the same token, who knows if Lebron will even need such heroics...the new supporting cast looks better than last year. And actually, I wouldn't doubt that Lebron pulls off another crazy performance like that...he's only 23.
Joe Smith will more take Gooden's place. And Joe Smith is more efficient in lots of ways. Again, they will only probably ask Wallace to give 24-28 MPG. He will be competing with Z, Sideshow, and Smith for the big minutes. This is a deeper and more complimentary and more veteran group than replacing Smith and Wallace with Gooden and Marshall (who has given them zero). I don't think you have watched with an unbiased eye. I don't remember Detroit controlling Clev any playoff game for two years. If not for a missed open jumper last year Clev probably sweeps last year--they were in command. Further, Clev is a young team on the rise that added more pieces and now has the best player in the game, Detroit's core for the most part only has one way to go.
you guys are just making too much sense........................Lebron is lucky, Ben Wallace should shave his head and contrary to popular belief Cleveland doesn't rock.............
So to replace gooden, you bring in joe smith (who is better at offense) and ben wallace (who is better at defense). Do the cavs plan on playing 6 vs 5? If detroit winning by 18 against the cavs is barely beating them, then the cavs barely beat detroit last year. dont underestimate the importance of that ONE game. and btw, if lebron is as great as you make him out to be, the cavs wouldnt be 32-24 in the incredibly weak eastern conference.
Hughes and Gooden are terrible. If not for them, Chicago would be beating Dallas tonight. Knuckleheads. They can't play system basketball. I can't believe Danny Ferry pulled off a steal after signing Hughes
no you switch them out or play them next to one another like most coaches with a brain would do.........go figure........... they took Detroit to 7 games and the Pistons almost got beat in Game 6 that season......so yeah I'd say they barely beat them when looking at the entire series and taking it for what it was....people didn't even think the cavs could win 2 games that year....I was one of them....... I'm not underestimating it, but what about the other 3 games the Cavs won????, they weren't always winning by the skin of their teeth...as far as the Cavs record is concerened they've been banged up this season and key pieces like Palvovic and Varejo didn't even sign on until later on in the season, but ever since they got most of their lineup together they've had one of the better records in the NBA (check the stats)...........
You're right, they would probably be 38-18. Lebron was injured for 6 games, of which the Cavs lost every single game...including blowouts against the mighty Sonics and Wizards. In fact none of those games were close except against the incredible Bobcats. Do you still consider that an 'underrated team?' I don't know if LBJ keyed your car or stole your girlfriend, but you need to get off the Haterade. (I can't believe I used that stupid word, but here it's totally appropriate.)
Actually, you asked me which fans were expecting the detroit ben wallace instead of the chicago one. Go back and reread your post. And if you think people's expectations of big ben are based on his chicago performance, you're mistaken. There would not be this much publicity and speculation if people's expectations of big ben are limited to only his chicago performance. You said "All he has to do is meet or exceed Gooden's rebounding/defense, which isn't asking too much from him." This implies that that Gooden's only contributions were on defense when in fact he also provided offense. When I watched the series, the pistons looked bored. They didnt seem to have any intensity and it looked to me like they all felt someone else was going to pick up the slack. Actually, I'm just saying you cant count on a repeat performance of last year's game 5. It'd be nice if it happened, but dont expect it. Yes, I am writing them off b/c I believe the celtics and pistons are better. I doubt it very much. Look at the highlights from that game. Look at the degree of difficulty in those long range jumpers. Also factor in the fact that he's not a great jump shooter. I would be very surprised if he can repeat that performance.
It also included detroit, toronto, and boston. none of those 3 teams is a guaranteed victory for the cavs. i'm sorry that i dont overrate players. i do think he's the 2nd best wingman in the league behind kobe.
Gooden and Marshall had the worst +/- and Roland rankings of their bigs getting major rotation minutes (Z and Sideshow much better). Gooden does produce decent basic stats, but when you look at efficiency and what he does for the bottom line (versus say Sideshow) it is not impressive http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CLE.HTM In their replace they added Smith (best +/- of Bulls bigs and better efficiency than Gooden) http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI.HTM and they added Wallace. Wallace has bad ratings at Chicago, but great numbers at Detroit. No small stretch to think he can do better in shorter minutes off a better team in Clev instead of more minutes on a worse and disfunctional Chi team--but we will see. Then Hughes and Newble, who also had poor ratings (see above), were sheded. In their replace they add by far the best performing Sonic, Wally, who actually has excellent ratings and is shooting the ball great. http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SEA.HTM Even on a sucky team the guy is playing very efficient—no other way to look at it. Now West has been mediocure to poor the last 2 years on sucky teams, but was solid 3 years ago. Now he might not turn it around, but he is young, and moved from terrible teams to good teams, so I could see reason for hope. So to summarize: Clev kept their 5 highest performing major rotation players in efficiency, the crazy good LeBron plus the very good Z + Sideshow, plus the positive territory Gibson + the mediocre Damon Jones. Then they added the very high performing Wally and very solidly positive Joe Smith--who look like much better compliments for team efficiency than Gooden and Hughes. Already they have improved in their top 7 guys before even considering other effects of the changes. And then you can see hope for why Ben Wallace, West, Pavolic or Dev Brown could bounce back with a team mix up. Wallace and West because of new promising teams, and Pavolic and Brown because if they don't catch a grip they will be buried on the bench . Pavolic may even learn some things from Wally--that could help him, Pavolic was their #3 guy last year but just hasn’t played well—but now he either plays better and stays in the rotation, or he is buried on the bench, they don’t have to keep playing him with Wally on the roster. So overall barring injury, this Cleveland team is going to be much tougher than the EC champs from last year. More than likely they will have a more effective starting 5 and have more effective bench. I remember thinking after game 1 last year when Marshall missed a wide open game winner that the Cavs blew their chance for a road win and would lose that series. I was way, way, wrong, the Pistons were simply overmatched and had no answers, not all that unlike the year before versus Wade and the Heat. I think Cleveland and Lebron with this team will again cut through them like butter--Cleve can play tough defense on Detroit and Det has noone who can guard Lebron and now Lebron has some shooters to boot.
great analysis Desert Scar. The stats prove what you can clearly see with the naked eye. Gooden and Hughes are low IQ players who can't thrive playing system ball. Their effort is quiestionable as well. Cleveland pulled a heist. I can't belive a smart guy like Paxson pulled such a trade. He was so intent on making up for the terrible contract of Wallace, that he made the situation even worse by taking the equally bad contract of Hughes
Earlier, I said that Gooden is not chopped liver. After recent posts, I may have to revisit that statement... to say nothing of watching him play against the Rocks. Yikes.
Was chicago dysfunctional last year? You're not worried wally will be a defensive liability? Before the season, the rockets were maybe the best team on paper. In any case, I agree that injury is the only thing stopping this cav team from being better than last year's. especially given joe smith's age and history of injuries.
I knew it was a mistake trying to discuss this w/ you. You seem to have imaginary discussions w/ yourself instead of responding to what people actually wrote. And you're response is Wow, genius answer. I guess that answers it...actually no it doesn't. This was a 11 player trade, involving Hughes' and Wallace's horrible contracts. It also involves 4 new people to the Cavs, which will result in 2-3 new starters. That's huge. The fact that it's Lebron's team is another. Not to mention the Bulls trying to integrate Hughes and Gooden. It's a joke to say all this publicity is focused on Wallace. Need I say more? No, I meant what I said. That's why I specifically only mentioned rebounding and defense. You infer so many things here and everyone has to multi-quote you. Why is that? They are expecting to compensate (and maybe gain) for Gooden's defense and rebounding from Wallace. They are expecting to compensate for Gooden's offense from the other 3 new guys. Did you really think the Cavs expected Wallace to match or exceed Gooden's offensive output? To each his own...I think you're alone on this opinion too. Did I say I was counting on a repeat performace for the Cavs to beat them? Don't expect the Pistons to sweep and blow the Cavs out every game, that's just foolish. (Two can play that game...see how I made up your argument?) To each his own. I hope you're 'right' like last year. To each his own, again. I guess Lebron can only get worse huh? (I did that trick again!) Well, have at it, I'm done. I knew it was pointless to discuss stuff w/ you because it always devolves into this back and forth (as evident by the rest of the thread w/ other posters). Please don't put words in my mouth again.
Actually it does. Read it again. Are you saying that out of the players the cavs picked up, you dont think big ben is projected to be the biggest impact player? Need I say more? I'm sorry. I thought that you were aware of the logical implications of your words. I didnt realize you were intentionally being shortsighted. I havent put any words in your mouth. I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so poor.
Well, I said I wouldn't respond, but at least get your facts straight: Nov 28 at Detroit L 74-109 (very close game before LBJ left in the first half, and he was STILL the leading scorer for his team) Nov 30 at Toronto L 82-91 (w/out Bosh) Dec 2 at Boston L 70-80 (I think LBJ could score 10 points) Dec 4 vs New Jersey L 79-100 Dec 5 at Washington L 86-105 Dec 8 at Charlotte L 93-96 BTW, the whole injury discussion was brought up because of your assertion that Lebron should be leading the Cavs to a better record. To spell it out, and avoid more words put in my mouth, this losing streak shows how mediocre his supporting cast was. I think you're the one overrating what he should be.
Look at Wade's team record. Heck, Kobe's team record was about 500 for most of the time post-Shaq (until this year). Given the shufling lineups, the 32-18 record with Lebron starting looks great by those standards. Lebron is the best and most relentless player in the game--I can admit this even though I couldn't stand the way he was hyped without doing anything in college BB let alone the pros.
My facts are straight. as i've maintained, had lebron stayed healthy, none of these games are a guaranteed cavs victory. Btw, if you're going to say that lebron is healthy, why not say that bosh is too? And whats the opportunity cost of lebron scoring 10 pts? His presence would change the entire dynamic of the game. Your train of thought is too simplistic. I said that if lebron were as good as everyone makes him out to be, the cavs would have a better record. How do you interpret this to mean that I overrate him? Your thinking is illogical.
yes, its admirable, but people arent comparing the cavs to the post-shaq lakers or the current miami heat. they're comparing the cavs to the current celtics and pistons. I agree, I hated how he was labeled a "superstar" before even joining the league. And it seemed that the nba was trying to manufacture a superstar in dwyane wade with all the favorable officiating. But I think kobe is better than lebron. kobe has a greater arsenal of moves, and each one of them is polished. not to mention he's a better free throw shooter. and in my opinion, he's a better defender.
