Simmons is the victim to me because all he did was play poorly or not up to expectations. That happens. Only one team wins and they usually do because someone underperformed. **** happens. For the team to react like that by throwing him under the bus is extra to me, did they throw anyone else under the bus?
No, that's not "all he did." He didn't just play poorly. He has set a pattern over 4 seasons. That's the problem. If he just had a bad playoffs series, I don't think his coach and Embiid would have reacted like that. There clearly has reached a boiling point and they felt that they've had enough.
Embiid did nothing but sneak diss Simmons multiple times throughout them playing together or made comments that were very questionable towards Ben...but this is the most obvious one and when the organization basically decided to throw Ben under the bus to the public... Ok, lets compare this to another situation. Why is Simmons weak but Durant is not? Didn't Green tell Durant the same thing essentially? "We don't even need you." Remember that whole thing? Durant took that hard...as any player does or would take. It, according to Durant, messed up the whole vibe he had with the team and of course he leaves to Brooklyn the next year. If you tell someone you're not valuable or not wanted then don't be surprised when that person wants to go.
Again, all he did was play poorly or not up to expectations, if he did it one year or ten doesn't mean you throw him publically under the bus like that. Phil didn't do that. Great coaches don't do that. It's not like he was picking fights with teammates or doing something morally wrong, he simply didn't play up to expectations. Imagine if Carlisle told Dirk after losing in the first round that "Just can't win a championship with Dirk, clearly."
Durant and Green have pinned the blame on the management for the break up. People make critical comments in the heat of the moment all the time and only very few people can't work it out. And the cupcake has gotten a great fair share of "weak" comments towards him, so kinda bad example there.. People either communicate their discontent and move on or they don't and things fester till they explode. River's and Embid's comments after game 7 could very well be said explosion. No one will know. All we can say is that Simmons showed little improvement over the years and sucked at free throws during playoffs for no apparent reason. He should be accountable for that to some extent considering the contract he willingly received. Why make him into a martyr?
Kind of. In that interview Durant said it should have been worked out between him and Green, wheter Green realizes it or not (He doesn't) Durant from that interview sounds like if Green had came up to him and worked it out, they would have worked it out. Green didn't though did he? Green is the main one that shifts the blame onto management but Durant said like 3x in that interview that it should have been worked out between him and Green...so why wasn't it? I doubt Kerr or the Warriors were preventing Green from personally apologizing to Durant and talking to him about it. Green just doesn't want to take the blame for breaking the team up so threw someone else under the bus. It's not about making him into a martry but can you guys bring up past coaches that threw players publically under the bus like that? It rarely ever happens and if it does never ends well. Usually coaches will take an (allegorical) bullet for players. How many times we saw coaches take bullets for Westbrook or any other wild player? Like it's not usual at all that a coach just says that after losing a tough game. Doc could have said a million things and instead of protecting his player threw him under the bus. Like I said, you can't be surprised when you tell someone they are not wanted or valued and then that person wants to go. Once Ben made his trade demands there's not much else for Philly to do, that's just how its been judging him for not coming in to practice or sucking it up and playing...like...we've been through this song and dance once a season. When all-nba player wants to get traded, all-nba player gets traded.
I don't know if you still didn't get it or you just ignore the elephant in the room. The problem is NOT JUST that he played poorly and not up to expectation. The problem is he has been refusing to work on improving his game or change his role and instead blames other people, yes including Embiid, for him not reaching his supposed potential.
Same as Dwight. Did you see the Rockets throw Dwight under the bus? Did you see Harden sneak dissing Dwight time and time again? Did you see McHale call out Dwight for underpeforming that Warriors series when he was supposed to be the clear and best big man on the floor? That's the Elephant in the room, Coaches and good teammates do not throw others publically under the bus while they are playing with each other. That stuff with Embiid, never came out of Simmons mouth publically did it? It's rumors from someone who claims he says it, which is as far as it should go. Not in front of a group of reporters needy for stories. Some of this stuff coming out as Ben wants out too and at this point it's moot. His team is going to be as cancerous as possible to get traded, we learned that just frmo last year with Harden. We learned that from Kawhi-Spurs drama, he's not going to behave nor should he as its beneficial for him to lower his value so that the team he goes to isn't gutted. Look what's going on with Kyrie. Any of the coaches or players throw him under the bus? Certainly, they have more of a reason to do so if you ask me. Any of the Warriors players throw Wiggins under the bus or did the players and coaches come to his defense? Can you name other situations where coach threw a player under the bus? I honestly can't think of good organizations that do this. I mean that's wild a reporter was like "Hey, Doc, what you think about the idea of Ben being a championship player?" Doc "Yeah brah, don't think he is." You're saying you're not excusing what Doc said but you kind of are excusing it. You're saying it was completely fine to say that because he played poorly...but that's not what coaches do, single out a player and throw him under the bus then you have the star player come out later and literally blame Ben for losing game 7...all in front of a room of reporters.
I have said that the Sixers didn't handle this right. I also am not a Doc fan and think his comment was very damaging. These points we agree. What I would agree to disagree with you is that Simmons is an innocent victim. He is not, and I put most of the blame on him to be in this situation. A better guy would be angry and work on proving them wrong. Simmons sits there and blame everybody else. BTW, a more damaging thing a coach said in my memory was SVG talking bad about Dwight behind his back and Dwight happened to just walked by and heard it. That was really embarrassing.
I had to let your post marinate for a while and see if there was any perspective I might have missed on this "Poor Ben Simmons is the victim!" angle. I was actually just going to not reply because what's the point if I feel like Simmons is weak and you feel like he's not right? However.... Please take a look at the players you've compared Simmons to. LeBron, Durant, and in your response to @Easy, Dwight Howard. Those guys took their respective teams to the NBA Finals as the alpha dog. If you don't agree with me on that then please don't bother reading the rest. Those three guys, at their peak, were able to carry most (if not all) of the burden for their team to at least get to the Finals. What heavy lifting has Simmons done to where he deserves sympathy? What has he done to deserve additional patience? Now of course you could counter by saying something like "Embiid has stopped Simmons from growing!" or "The Sixers have done nothing to build around Simmons!" and, if that's the case, we can end our conversation right here. Simmons was touted as, hyped up to be, and drafted as The. Next. Big. Thing. As far as I'm concerned, The Next Big Thing don't stay flatline in terms of production over the course of 4+ years. "But he's All-Defensive team" yea, so was Patrick Beverley. "But he was on the 1st team!" yea, so was Marcus Smart. "But he's made 1st team TWICE!" yea, so was Tony Allen. "He made All-NBA and All-Defensive team in the same season!" Yea, so did Victor Oladipo. What's my point? My point is, as nice as those accolades are, Ben has the skills/talent/potential to be better but he clearly isn't there. Therein lies the gap: His max contract says he's a superstar, his draft selection says he should be a superstar, his accolades say he might be a superstar, but his on-court production and lack of growth says otherwise. This is why he's getting rightfully criticized. If he can't handle the criticisms (not just the one Doc lobbed over the fence but from everyone) then he can either stop acting like he's a superstar and play a role more suited with his current abilities (e.g. 3rd banana) or he can put in the work and fulfill his potential. I think the kid is a talented player and have referenced many times that he can easily be a top 5 player in the NBA if he put in the work. He could easily be better than Giannis if he had the same determination and work ethic as Giannis. But he hasn't put in the work or hasn't used what he's done in practice and implemented in real game situations. You can't say that the Sixers hasn't given him the green light to do whatever he wants either; this isn't a situation where the Sixers/Doc are telling him "Look Ben, we know you can't shoot or don't want to shoot so you don't have to" and then run to the press/media and say he sucks or isn't championship material. Basically, if you're willing to defend Simmons and make him out to be some kind of martyr, at least take a step back and realize that using LeBron, Durant and even Dwight Howard for comparisons is a reach. Those players actually had year(s) where you can point out the apex of their skill/production. It's going to be Simmons' 6th year in the NBA (5th with actual playing time) and his career numbers looks like a dead person's vital signs.
My thing is Simmons has to do more than just play poorly to deserve that comment, if that is the reason then bench him, do something else. Doc's comment made a bad situation 50x worse at the very least and then Embiid's comments added on to, that anyone is surprised that Simmons now wants out shouldn't be and if Philly fans want to blame anyone for scaring away Ben Simmons, who, according to many is content to just cruise on his talent (So why even want out of Philly?) then blame the coach and star player that told him his talent wasn't appreciated to the press. Also yes, the Dwight and SVG situation and that one didn't end well either. I think there is criticism but there is a line. Things Doc could have said that were actual criticism when asked that question. "We'll see, we will work on some things and some lineups, maybe play him in different roles that better help him and the team but absolutely he's a player we expect to win a championship with." or "He has to get better, we all have to get better, myself included because we weren't good enough today." I can't put the blame on him because before the trade rumors and those comments Simmons never seemed to have desires to leave Philly. When that stuff started popping up of course a guy is going to wonder if he's valued by the team and if not...then why play for that team when you can go elsewhere?
look guys, Ben has a legitimate beef, I agree with @JayGoogle somewhat. We are not here the ultimate divorce judges to accurately apportion the fault among the parties. But 76ers are not without fault. Which makes it different than the Harden situation, where the guy just decided, “I’m not that into you”, after the Rockets bent over backwards to accommodate him in each and every way… it;s a messy divorce with legit grievances from each side.
Again, Simmons doesn't deserve those comments regardless of play. Coach's don't even say stuff like that towards the 12th man on the team much less their 2nd best player. Simmons, despite the NBA community deciding to dogpile him this season, is still a literal all-star and all-nba player that actually has carried that team quite a lot considering Embiid's injury history. While he might not be the best player on your team he's good enough to get your team to the playoffs and that's considering how bad of a shooter he is which is saying something. You're saying I'm excusing simmons but really I'm pointing out how bad Embiid's and Doc's comments were after that series. They were by all purposes, nuclear. The coach said he basically couldn't win a championship with him and the star player said the reason they lost the game was because of him... Again, you don't even see this said about bench and role players and you can't have it both ways. That hey "He's so good we should expect better of him!" and then "He's not good enough so he deserves to get thrown under the bus" because I'm reading it like hey...it'll be completely fine if Coach Silas first game says "We can't win any games with the guy." and then KPJ follows it up with "Lost that game because of that one guy, yeah you know who I'm talking about." How often does this happen? Again, it would be one thing if Doc just went on about his shooting or whatever that's more of the same...but it crosses a line when you're blaming the guy for your team's trouble. As if the entirety of the 6ers issues are because of Simmons, not poor coaching, not a mostly decent supporting cast around both Embiid and Simmons. And no, they didn't run to the media, that would have been 100x worse...instead though when questioned about it they put the target on his back and didn't protect him at all as happens like 99% of the time. You think coaches don't know X player is playing bad and the team doesn't know that? Of course they do, of course it's talked about, but it should never be talked about in front of the press. Keep it behind closed doors. Just because a player plays badly doesn't mean you throw them under the bus. I just don't think a valid excuse for what Doc/Embiid said is "He didn't play well." then fine...then say that about the other players that made mistakes all throughout the game.
Right, I think too the Harden situation is different but I remember when it went down as well because so many people were mad at Wall and Cousins were saying things about Harden publically like...the Rockets were in full divorce mode with Harden then and Harden did what he felt he had to do to get traded, outright later admitted it... And now Ben is doing the same. He wants out of Philly but unlike Harden it's not like he's begged to want out. He didn't appreciate being in trade rumors for...man 2-3 years now? Then he didn't appreciate the things said about him...so he wants out. On the flip side, Philly is completely in their rights to trade him and not want him on the team because they feel like he hasn't grown as a player... But Philly, because of their actions...could be the ones to pay the most for this. All this lowers his value. It was in their best interests (if they planned on trading him which seems to be the case) was to make it seem like he's happy being there and has value to the team... But again, I wouldn't doubt Morey. He might have a good deal on the table he's sitting on.
Regarding that post game interview question about Simmons being the guard. Just to remind folks the actual answer Doc gave was: "I don't know the answer to that right now" He didn't say 'no'. He didn't say 'chances are slim' He didn't say 'Simmons sucked'. He didn't call out the specifics on Simmons being afraid to shoot or his free throws woes. This team hasn't won an ECF. All he said was 'he didn't know'. That's a pretty diplomatic answer. He kept his cool, didn't vent all his grievances, anger on national TV. The narrative about 'throwing under the bus' didn't make the rounds in the national media circuit until weeks after. After Simmons losing the publicity battle and news leaked about not wanting to be back. People like to give both sides equal weight; all Doc said was 'i don't know that right now' Do you guys actually think Simmons is a 1 or 2 on a championship contenter/favorite team? He gave a non answer, which is probably the best he could do. If Doc straight up and lied, after what everyone just saw in the elimination game, people would think Doc is delusional.
In case of Green Vs Durant, there are three parties and two parties seem to be in agreement that it was a situation that could be worked out. So I just assumed that I can trust it in saying that public shaming comments CAN be worked out in NBA without demanding trades. With the superstars these days beings coddled to a point where if they are unhappy, they could throw games, it's not unreasonable that the Sixers were suspecting that. If that's the case you either call it out or you trade the guy and, generally, no one can trade a top player in the league for par when initiating said trade, not even Morey. So the only other way to create a market is to make a scene and hopefully start a bidding war. Currently Simmons' trade value is low despite him willing to play for small market teams. This means he is not considered a top 30 player. Which means he regressed OR is considered a mental case with baggage. This also means that his contract must be somewhat enforceable or the league would disintegrate, because of non-stop trade demands due to inter-personal conflicts among players. If his contract is enforceable, then I question why I should feel any sort of sympathy for him. That's what I was trying to figure out when I felt like you were making a martyr out of him.
