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Ben DuBose: Fertitta’s goal is limiting the “bad years” to one or two seasons

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by csnerd84, Mar 31, 2021.

  1. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Daryl preferring Russ to Chris Paul when Tim himself said that Daryl was the biggest Chris Paul backer in the organization is wild to me. I’m sorry but unless your source was Daryl, Monte or someone in the war room I don’t think that I could ever believe Daryl would prefer Russ over him. Even Clutch doesn’t believe that Daryl would want to Russ. Chris Paul HAS BETTER stats than Westbrook that same year. Daryl would have to be going against all the analytics he believed in for this to be true.
     
  2. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    This is a stretch man. How would you even demonstrate any owner has ever done that? It would be far fetched especially for Tilman.

    Harden is the one who can't say anything other than "try" since it's his friend. Daryl can easily show him the numbers and they would immediately demonstrate catastrophic projections. Harden clearly reads advanced stats, he designed his game and development around it. Look at how bad he wants a title. If Morey says no way they win a title, Harden is quietly stepping out of that discussion.

    Can he go out or even internally say he's cool if it doesn't happen? No way.

    I don't think anyone is buying that Tilman is covering for Harden. It would be totally out of character.
     
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  3. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    I might have missed something along the way. But this is the first time I hear that Morey wanted Westbrook over Paul. It's surprising because Westbrook is very un-Morey kind of player. The only reason I think Morey would prefer Westbrook over Paul was that he thought Paul's days as an effective player were done.
     
  4. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Im sorry but I don't believe you or your source.

    There has never been a bigger Morey player than Chris Paul.

    Morey put Chris Paul on his all time team as PG in a reddit AMA.

    Morey came out and blanketly stated that Chris Paul would not be traded and would be back the following year.

    That **** just doesn't happen unless he was forced to do something.

    I'm sure that Morey explored adding Westbrook to Paul and Harden, but to swap Paul FOR WB, there is absolutely no chance.
     
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  5. napalm06

    napalm06 Fertitta-McNair School of Management
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    Amen sir. Reading through our transactions since 2018 is a horror story.
     
  6. dmoneybangbang

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    Even though you can say "a hamstring away", trading for an aging point guard who was due one last max contract carried major risks.... which played out.
     
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  7. dmoneybangbang

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    That's how I interpreted it.
     
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  8. napalm06

    napalm06 Fertitta-McNair School of Management
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    Sadly at the risk of being labeled a conspiracy theorist or a truther, I must agree. From a game theory or behavioral analysis standpoint, plus Tilman saying his "ops people has cold feet on the deal", the series of value destroying moves around Knight, Chriss, Shumpert, Anderson, etc, and Morey leaving at the end of the season, I might grant that Morey didn't expect Westbrook to be that bad, but there is no way he coveted him based on any combination of advanced metrics. I dont believe Morey would've left the team if the moves were all his own mistakes and not a result of external pressure.
     
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  9. Reeko

    Reeko Member
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    Morey wanting Russ over CP3? Especially when coming off averaging 23 points on 22 shots and 36/32/86 shooting splits as he lost in 5 games in the 1st round?

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

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    From that same podcast, here's the other thing that Tim said:
    Nobody — Daryl or anybody else — has ever told me that he made that trade with objections, that he made that trade despite not fully believing in it


    Few other things:

    1.) Again, there's gray to what you quoted from Tim. Do I believe that Daryl was higher on CP than others in the organization? Yes. Do I believe that Daryl wanted to keep him, under all circumstances? No. Both can be true.

    2.) Analytics don't capture where the franchise was in the 2019 offseason. That 2019 series loss to GSW was gutting. To lose at home, even after KD's injury, was crushing — and CP was (Game 6 excluded) very underwhelming in that series. There was very little enthusiasm from anyone for another "run it back" year. They wanted to roll the dice.

    3.) There was absolutely a case to be made that OKC didn't use Russ properly. What Daryl did with the switch to small-ball, and what that unlocked in Russ in January and February 2020, was outstanding. Unfortunately, due to injury, we didn't get to see that version in the bubble... and then everything blew up in the offseason.

    4.) I absolutely think that Morey would have resigned on the spot, rather than trade who he viewed as the better player plus two first-round picks and two first-round swap rights. Remember, at the time, this was even before the China incident. His market was unbelievable. I do not believe that he would have allowed that to happen.
     
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  11. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    @The Cat is a highly respected poster here. You guys shouldn't mock him just because what he said didn't fit your narrative. You don't really know what's going on behind the scene.
     
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  12. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

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  13. LosRockets2011

    LosRockets2011 Contributing Member

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    All I know is that Rockets suck and our owner is 100% to blame.
     
  14. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

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    Correct, this was a large part of the issue.

    Absolutely no one is saying that Chris Paul isn't a better player than Russell Westbrook, all-time. Of course he is. I don't think they're even close on Morey's all-time list, if you asked him to rank NBA players.

    But we're not talking about comparing overall careers. We're talking about one very specific set of circumstances in July 2019. At that time, CP was coming off back-to-back seasons where he missed roughly 25 games, including multiple Grade 2 hamstring strains. There was legitimate concern all around the NBA that he was washed. Houston was far from alone in that fear.

    The other part of the issue, the Rockets were okay at that point with rolling the dice. It's not just that they lost in the 2019 playoffs, it's the way they lost. Lots of people around the organization (yes, Tilman was likely one, but there were many others) wanted to shake things up. See above.

    Anyway, I want to emphasize that this is a very nuanced topic. I am not saying that I think Daryl would have done that same trade on his own, if outside forces (Harden, Tilman, take your pick) were not involved. What I'm saying is that the outside forces played a role in the extent of additional compensation (two 1sts + two pick swaps) that went to OKC. That's where there may have been a sticking point.
     
  15. The Cat

    The Cat Contributing Member

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    Anyway, look, I'm not saying any of you have to believe me, or Tim. No hard feelings if you don't, I get it.

    As I said earlier, there's no point in relitigating this. Given the trade's importance (in a disastrous way) and the extent to which we've all played the "what if?" game since, all of our perspectives are dug in. The only thing that could change it is a recording leak or a transcript, IMO.

    All I was trying to push back on were suggestions that people of my view are ignoring evidence. That's not the case. We simply weight the evidence differently, and came to different conclusions. Agree to disagree.
     
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  16. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
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    Hey, I was likewise VERY upset with the trade. If you don't believe me, go ask my wife or son, who were with me when the trade news broke and had to keep me from making a scene in the restaurant we were at at the time! However, in order to serve as a "Point/Counter-Point" with Clutch on our podcast, I tried to take the position of "Well, what's done is done. How can we make the best of this situation?" I thought a (healthy) Chris Paul was a better fit than Westbrook but acknowledged that Westbrook (at that time) was considered a "healthier" player. Oh, how wrong we all were about that!
     
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  17. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Do you think Daryl would ever tell Tim that,do you think anyone in the front office actually talks to Tim? Well Im sure Rafael talks to Tim a lot now.

    1. I dont believe that he would trade Chris Paul for a worse fit and a worse player especially when Dantoni himself was highly against this trade.

    2. Yea Im sure, that's why they wanted Jimmy Butler. Why would Westbrook inspire anything from anyone after he got his ass whooped by Lillard and posting a 46 TS% with a lower BMP , VORP, and RAPTOR than Chris Paul. Why would a worse player inspire enthusiasm. Why would one of the worst shooters in playoff history inspire Daryl? Daryl would have to have had an aneurysm for him to ever want Westbrook over Paul.

    3. Russ had Paul George on the team and had been in decline since his MVP season. The dude could not even get out of the first round. And for all the talk about his January-Feb Harden still had a higher offensive load during that season because this dude could not pick up the slack. We were STILL WORSE with the dude on the court during his "hot" stretch. I dont doubt that we could have had a better showing against the Lakers had he been healthy but he also has fundamental issues in the playoffs that were always there and that killed us.

    4. Really? I think Daryl values James a lot and that if he and Tillman forced his hand, he did it knowing that he didnt have any options. No guy wants to lose their job after they built everything here. But now look at what happend, the dude duct out of his contract and made Tillman look like a fool. Daryl did not like him.
     
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  18. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    I didnt mock him, just because i dont agree with him doenst mean I dont respect him. But there are enough stats out there that show what a train wreck Russ was a player that analytics would clearly show Chris Paul was better, especially in the playoffs.
     
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  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    The general manager of the Houston Rockets, who made the trade flat out said James Harden wanted to trade for Russell Westbrook but was “good” when Morey told him that it likely wouldn’t happen.

    I personally will go with what the person in the middle of it all has to say about it. Especially in the context in which it was said.

    Having said that, everyone is entitled to their opinion but the comparison to Trump and “I won the election” in the biggest load of **** you have posted in sometime.
     
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  20. sheb

    sheb Member

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    Harden back season 3 confirmed
     

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