outside of last year, he WAS an effective player: all-nba every year and put up very good playoff performances. you can use an 04-05 playoffs as a prime example. it's hard to say you can play better than tracy could in that series v. the mavs. AND STILL LOST. last year was a failure so rail on that all you want. and i've stated a bajillion times this team should move in a new direction. we cannot build around guys who are always injured. and tracy is going to be 30 with a long history of injuries. but i'm just trying to respond to your argument tinman .
Sounds more like jealousy than anything else to me. Based on most of the posts on these threads, Tracy's worth is what everyone is mad about at the tune of $20+ million, LOL. If that's what it means to be worthless can I join that club?
I gotta disagree with you on a few things. Tmac had a developed and pretty healthy (85-90%) Yao for the 2007 series...but they had no bench. I would say that was a pretty good sidekick though. I think the bench was more of the issue than the sidekick. He didn't have help help in Orlando though, I agree with you on that. Tmac was comparable to to Kobe, and about even until 2003. He was more unselfish than Kobe...Kobe took A LOT of bad shots with good teammates around him. Both were good defenders back then, but Kobe was slightly better. However, Kobe was more clutch than Tmac (although it was easier for him since the entire defense couldn't just focus on him, they had to worry about Shaq as well). After 2003, Tmac's athleticism started to decline due to injury, and Kobe hit his peak while Tmac was losing athleticism. By 2007, Tmac became a better team player, while Kobe clearly became the better individual talent. I think injuries did that to Tmac...he didn't just lose skill all of a sudden. Kobe became a smarter player when he got help and Phil Jackson came back the 2nd time. Lebron to me is the best in the NBA...he can carry any team without much help. Just imagine if he had some decent talent? Wade is more aggressive than Tmac and Kobe on both ends of the floor. His jump shot was never as good as theirs, and he is smaller, so they are somewhat different, but he's around the level Tmac was at in 2003 and Kobe in 2006. Carmello is a great scorer and decent rebounder, but he doesn't have the playmaking ability of Lebron, Kobe, Dwade, or Tmac. He's kind of one-dimensional. Once he had a playmaker (Billups, his team succeeded) he's great at what he does, but hasnt really improved on other aspects of his game. I'll agree with you about Carmello, but disagree with you about Kobe (from 2004-present), Lebron, and Dwade (better now, but at their peaks, equal). I do think Tmac does a lot with little talent, but when Lebron takes his teams to the Finals and wins 66 games with them without much talent, its hard to argue that...Lebron is on a whole different galaxy as far as carrying teams...right there with MJ.
a tmac just off microfracture, i'm sure you would. i would too. but that's not the argument. would you take joe johnson over the tracy of previous years who was such a low volume shooter in the playoffs? that same joe johnson shoots 42% in the playoffs with a PER of 13.4 for his career.
I agree its about the team. But when T-mac is controlling the offense (lets face it he can't play off the ball), he needs to take the blame. Sure the man didn't have the best teammates around. I agree with you. But he had enough to have teams that win 50+ games and make the playoffs, but i guess the same roster can't win the playoffs...... Joe Johnson has one good reason why he got out of the 1st round. Playing with the team and being an option on the offense. Joe doesn't dominate the ball as much as T-mac, so Joe's teammates can get into a rhythm. Imagine playing with T-mac and watching him throw up 25-28 FGA per game, thats just FGA and not touches. I wish somebody kept track how many touches T-mac had with the ball. If i had to bet, i would say its around 60% of the offensive touches. T-mac even said in Rick's 1st season, it was hard for him to adjust and I think its because Rick's offense means everybody touches the ball. Rick eventually abandoned his offense because T-mac and Yao couldn't run it. (I could be wrong) The one thing we can agree on is, T-mac did too much for the team. Good or bad. Its almost the same debate on being too Yao centric.....has its advantage and disadvantage...unfortunately for T-mac it hasn't produced what he wanted. Yes a little luck would of helped. AKA Dallas series (we should of won), Jazz Series (teammates disappeared), 2nd Jazz series (Yao and Rafer was hurt) It is what it is.
I agree with you, without him, we may not have a 4th quarter but it goes 2 ways. If the offense wasn't so T-mac centric...maybe it would have been different. I always envisioned T-mac to score a low key 15 points by 3rd quarter, conserving his energy. Playing off the team. Than bam, when 4th quarter comes its Tmac PNR play and play smart. Long contested Jumpers in the 4th quarter is what I will always remember about him. Not the dunk on Shawn, not the 13 in 35 seconds, for me its always going to be "Why T-mac, why the long contest jumper". I could live with him trying a mid-range jumper or a missed layup....but not that stupid play. We all know what that is......elevated jumper at the key (either a 3 or damn near a 3), the lowest % shot in the game.
i never said tracy shouldn't take the blame. he should. ugh joe johnson doesn't handle the ball as much as tracy? he plays PG for the hawks basically. the reason he doesn't shoot as much is b/c he's not as good. did you see the playoffs this year? dude was scared to shoot the ball for most of the playoffs. the only one game he did play well was when he jacked up a bajillin 3s and they happened to go in. the one thing we can all agree on is that tracy did WAY TOO MUCH when he did play. and there's a reason even the greatest players in the NBA never diss tracy IN THE PLAYOFFS. magic/reggie/charles all know what a superstar has to do in the playoffs. the reason i'm bringing up the 04-05 playoff series was during that series, everybody and their mother said that was one of the best playoffs series one has seen individually from a player. bill simmons from ESPN said that was the best playoffs series he has seen from a PERIMETER player since michael jordan. magic called him jordan-like. AND HE STILL LOST. the only "subpar" series for tracy was 06-07 v. the jazz when he did shoot 40%. he should have done much more v. the jazz that series (ala 30+, 7+, 7+). that was the expectations. he "only" put up 25, 5, 7.
I do agree, Doc Rivers and JVG asked Tmac to do WAAYYY too much for the teams he played for. Basically since 2000 he was asked to dominate the ball, and make plays for the team during the entire team. With Yao, that lessened a little bit...probably from 90% to 60%, since Yao still needs the ball to be fed to him in the post. That went on until the 2008 season, since they had no other players that could create...Rafer was good at controlling tempo and bringing the ball up court, but he wasn't an offensive threat. Shane needed to be fed in the corner for a 3, and Hayes would just roam the baseline, as a last option for Tmac. So basically, for 7 years, Tmac played that way, and then all of a sudden, he's asked to change after winning 2 scoring titles, winning 50 + games twice, and still without players that can really create their own shots (Scola, Landry, and Brooks weren't proven at first in the NBA). I could see why that was hard to adjust for Tmac, when the previous coaches have all said, "You make everything happen for us...its on you to create, score, and get to the line" But it was a bad thing in the long run...it wore him out and it was fool's gold...sure we won 50 games, vs. various opponents, but the D steps up in the playoffs, and would dare others to score and beat them. Unfortunately once we got a better coach and help in 2008, Yao goes down for the playoffs, so does Rafer. Then last year with the addition of Artest, Tmac finally wears out to need more surgery. Another thing....Joe Johnson is not as good as Tmac, never will be as good as a prime, peak Tmac...thats why he doesn't dominate the ball, he's not as good a playmaker, not as good a scorer, and nowhere near as athletic as Tmac was til 2005. he couldn't get anything out of the Hawks before they brought in Bibby, Horford, J. Smith, and Marvin Williams. They didn't make it to the playoffs before that, and they barely won 37 games last year to get into the playoffs.
Joe in my mind is not a #1 offense option, he is a great #2. However you brought up Joe and I am saying Joe doesn't dominate the ball as much as T-mac. I never said he didn't handle the ball, but in reality he doesn't dominate the ball as a prime T-mac would do. The problem I have is, if T-mac didn't have to "feel" the need to do everything, he would have more success.
despite getting out the first round last yr, i found joe johnson to be vastly overrated. i'm sure morey would take the 07-08 over joe johnson in his prime in a heartbeat. dude pulled a luther head last yr for a star player. ugh. i had high hopes for him too and thought he was underrated before going into the playoffs last yr.
watch the playoffs my friend. he does what a tmac/kobe/bron/wade does. whenever the ball passes halfcourt, it's in joe's hands and he does the rest from there. he's just not as good in terms of scoring or playmaking, that's all. again, i'm sure tracy doens't want to do everything. but when your coach (doc/JVG) wants you to do everything, who is he to say no? tmac - "nah coach, let rafer do some stuff man." JVG would bench him.
I definitely agree, thats why I was shocked that he left the Suns The reason I brought him up is because they have similar skills, but Joe to a lesser extent. I think Tmac got that attitude from his Orlando days, where he really did have to do everything, include lead his team in rebounds and blocks in 2002 (8 rpg and 1bpg)...he had absolutely no big men presence...just a bunch of tall stiffs with no skill. Then he comes to Houston, he can take a few possessions off when Yao posts up, but Yao was still developing in 2005, and in 2007, we still had nobody that could create, so all Tmac could do was just get Yao the ball some more and when he had the ball, he still had to do everything.
I can't debate if Joe dominates the ball that much because we don't have anybody who tracks how many times a player touches the ball. Well maybe Doc and JVG were wrong. IMHO JVG offense was ugly, that explains it all.
I hope for the best for T-mac. I really want him to come back and play strong. But most importantly, I wish T-mac would understand "he doesn't need to score 22+ to be the most important player on the team". In our current Roster, he doesn't need to do it all and I think some of us are afraid it won't change. -If he can play motivated every day -If he can play both ends of the court -If he flows with the offense Its all I ask. Call me dumb but I have enough energy for one more T-mac and Yao push. What else do we have???
Yes...JVG offense was brutal to watch at times, but his defenses were great. However, there is a misconception that Tmac wouldn't or couldn't play off the ball. He did and he was effective at it with JVG and RA. The problem with JVG though was that like Van Gandy's tend to do, they panick if the game gets tight, and he puts the ball right back in Tmac's hands, where its VERY predictable, so the defense is intent on stopping Tmac. JVG wouldn't go to Yao, because Yao turned the ball over a lot back then (largely due to JVG for making his offense to predictable with Yao as well as TMac). Thats why I believe you didn't see Tmac playing off the ball as often as we probably would've liked. with RA, tmac struggled with injuries, but when healthy, he did play off the ball, and even got many alley hoops because of it. DUring the winning streak, it seemed like Tmac had atleast 1 alley hoop per game. However, once Yao went down, RA kinda had to go to a JVG style offense, and knew that TMac was his best chance at winning...not his offense with that cast of players (Deke at center, Battier at SF).
With Yao being out this upcoming year, I'm guessing we've seen the last of Tmac and Yao as teammates. Unless Tmac signs for dirt cheap. I don't think the motivation was the problem...he'll remember how hard it was to come back from microfracture surgery. I think his defense will suffer because of the surgery...he has to lose a little bit with microfracture after 12 seasons. I think we can run RA's offense with our current roster, and without Yao, it will be easier to run it, so I think he could do it. I do however think that He and Scola need to average 20 ppg in order for us to win. Brooks needs to be at around 15 or so ppg. Unless Tmac is used more for creating and allows Brooks to score more, then thats fine as well. But we need scoring/creating production from Scola, Tmac, and Brooks.
your points are right. I'm just tired of people glorifying failure or making excuses for it. And when you start glorifying Orlando, when they were eliminated in the first round, that's even more embarrassing. The bottom line, we got this guy to take us to the Finals, we came nowhere close to it. That's the burden of the 23 million dollar man. That's the burden of being a Houston Rocket, we have high expectations, this isn't Raptors or Magic.
Well I'll agree with you only up til your last point. Number 1 i don't think you can put anybody not even LeBron or Kobe in the same sentence or breath as MJ. That's one. Second I would have to disagree with you. I find it hard to believe that a team that won 66 games could be considered a team with scrubs. Mo' Williams and Delonte West are not scrubs. Delonte West was a starting point guard. Mo' Williams was putting up number when he was on the Bucks. I would say the Cavs got better. They just so happened to get matched up against the Magic who possess match up problems. I would look at it as a Rockets-Jazz match-up but in the east. Mobile big man vs. Non mobile big man. That right there alone is hard to do. I believe when LeBron 1st came in the league he was WAY over hyped and over rated. He didn't do anything really. For him to win the ROY award was just plain wrong. I believe that Caremelo should have won it. But now I wouldn't call LeBron overrated tho. Honestly I believe when McGrady was traded to Houston his game change enormously. I laugh when guys say McGrady needs to change is game but can't. I guess they didn't see how quickly he changed it when he was playing for the Rockets. Having Yao downlow would make it easy on him. He wouldn't have to do so many things like he did in Orlando. Honestly the only 2 problems with the McGrady and Yao era are the injuries and having no bench from the beginning. Simple as that.
Thank you! You FINALLY said something that made some sense! lol I don't think he can "lead us to glory" after microfracture surgery either...but I would wait til the trade deadline or let his contract expire and pick up free agents. We won't get any value right now. I can understand why anybody is frustrated with Tmac after last year...he had a horrible season. But atleast you can admit that he can be an effective player... my main problem with your previous arguments was that you claimed he wasn't that talented and was overrated even til 2007. I don't think he was better than Kobe, Lebron or Dwade, but he was comparable to them at times. I was basically defending what he's already done and his previous talent level pre 2009 season... as far the future...after microfracture surgery, things are always unpredictable, so it wouldn't be a wise investment for the Rockets to sign him to a long-term or expensive contract, his injuries are a risk. But I personally think we should let his contract expire and let him prove himself...at worst, we don't do good, get a lottery pick, $23 million in cap room, and start over with Yao coming back the next year. Best case scenario, he comes back close to 2007 Tmac, helps us get to the playoffs, and we'll see what happens from there.
Mo Williams is only as good as his shot on a given night...he can't play D, he doesn't really create. He was exposed throughout the Playoffs. Delonte West is a solid player, but he isn't going to create much either. He's a decent shooter, but he is a solid defender for his size. A nice role player. Varajao is a good hustle player, but man did he get overpaid...he should definetily send Lebron a thank you card, just like Cook should send one to Kobe. Varajao is limited offensively as well. VERY LIMITED. Z is a good center, but he's old and slow. His jump shot was very important for Lebron to give him space to drive, but he was exposed in the playoffs as well...he made DH12 look like Wilt. Their bench was nothing but old spot up shooters (Szcerbiak and Joe Smith) and 2 young, inconsistent players (Gibson and Pavlovic). Thats still doesn't look like a 66 win team with Lebron IMO. I do agree the matchup with Orlando was a horrible one for them, BUT Lebron still had to put up crazy #'s throughout the playoffs. He was worn out by game 2 vs. Orlando. You're right about MJ for right now...I think Lebron has the potential to get close to that level, with his age and production and physique. Plus he's already carried crap teams far like Jordan did in the late 80's. You are right on key with the Rockets vs. Jazz matchup with Yao and Okur...that really made Yao struggle. The way Lebron was built at 18, and putting up 21, 6, 5, and 1.5 spg at 18 is pretty good. By 19, he was up to 27, 7, 7, 2, and improved his fg % by 6%. Carmelo is a great scorer, but his playmaking abilities are still not that great. He's not as good a rebounder as Lebron either, even though they are the same height and big small forwards. He was a little overhyped, but he lived up to it...and exceeded.
