I'm a liberal and that wasn't me. I hoped time and time again that Bush would prove me wrong on my thinking about his reasoning for the war, his unilateralism, and attitude toward foreign policy. I was proven wrong when it came to the initial military action in Afghanistan, and I was very happy. I'm not real happy with how things have been handeled in regards to Iraq, and Bush has done little to prove my thoughts wrong.
To anyone who think's our liberalizing Iraq is wrong, isn't a liberal. Read your history ladies and gentlemen.
Let's face it. It is hard for me to not hate the US until imho it engages in some policies that benefit more of mankind. Love the man hate the sinner. It is tough to do so. Maybe it is just because I spent a few of my formative years in a third world country, but it is hard for me to subsribe to what seems to be an underlying idea that to be a patriotic American, you always have to think of what benefits the US almost exclusvely and support this 4% of humanity right or wrong. If the US bullies everyone else or goes against international law so be it. We're always the best and most noble. What's more if you don't think like this you are an anti-American. On the otherhand, I recently went to the play 1776 in the Ford Theater in DC. When you study the ideas of the framers it is hard to totally hate the United States, regardless of what it has become. It is important to remember that the US is no worse than other empires have been, and in some respects better. I guess this is good enough for most Americans. Not very hopeful about humanity or progress. I guess this is what is really meant by "conservative'. Too bad. As the US could be so much better. The Gulf War II was really a "defeat for humanity". The US could use its power to promote just international institutions leading to peace rather than World War IV, V, VI etc. It is so obvious that the US accepts international institutuions only to the extent that it can dominate them. Recent US policies toward the UN are a disgrace and are viewed so by probably 95% of humanity, all but 70% of Americans, 50% of the Brits and a few others.
Originally posted by glynch Let's face it. It is hard for me to not hate the US ... Conngrats on having the courage to finally admit that. ... Too bad. As the US could be so much better. The Gulf War II was really a "defeat for humanity". IYHO. Maybe history will record this as the defeat of a horrible tyrant, and prove to be a turning point for despots who thought they could hide behind the international norms based on national 'sovereignty'. It is an opening the left has been seeking for decades...human rights over national rights...yet they now spurn the possible opportunity. The US could use its power to promote just international institutions leading to peace rather than World War IV, V, VI etc. It is so obvious that the US accepts international institutuions only to the extent that it can dominate them. Recent US policies toward the UN are a disgrace and are viewed so by probably 95% of humanity, all but 70% of Americans, 50% of the Brits and a few others. As has been mentioned numerous times, world public opinion may be a good barometer for most things, but has been grossly wrong in the past (response to Hitler). (And your 95% number is ridiculous; since the US and British numbers account for about 4% of the 5% that you say agree, that leaves only 1% of the rest of the world agreeing with the policy towards the UN. That's quite unrealistic.)
Jeff, glynch just admitted his hatred for America. There are members of the left wing lunatic fringe who hold these beliefs. This is indisputable fact.
I said some. It is pretty obvious that some liberals really don't like the US. The funny thing is that while the right makes the effort to paint the left as "Anti-American", the group of US Citizens that actually actively are anti-US-Government are the <I>right-wing</I> militias.
some people are so far left, they're right...or so far right, they're left..ultimately communism and facism look a lot alike in practice
Nope. The funniest thing is that Saddam Hussein's top notch soldiers were known as the Republican Guard. Whassupwiddat?
Bill Hicks had a great routine about the first Gulf War that went sorta like this... "Remember when this thing started? They'd talk about the Republican Guard in hushed whispers, like they were the bogey men or something. 'Things are going pretty well but we have yet to face the elite Republican Guard.' Like these guys **** bullets or something. Well, after a couple of weeks with no response from these guys, they went from the 'elite Republican Guard,' to 'the Republican Guard' to the Republicans made this **** up about there being guards out there."
Note I didn't say I hated America, just that it is hard not to hate it, given its actions. Perhaps I can explain it using a family analogy. I see them often on the bbs saying things like the Arabs are children who need to be taught right from wrong and need discipline. The Europeans, Russians, Latin Americans, liberals and all who disagree with US policies are bratty teenagers who don't appreciate that their comfortable life and freedoms are the result of all that the US does for them. Fortunately papa USA is around to give these children and bratty teenagers a dose of tough love. Not to worry, however, as they will eventually come to realize the goodness of papa, despite his stern ways. Now to the initial distinction-- hating versus hard not to hate. If you have a crack addicted child who is breaking your heart and stealing from the family etc., . it is hard not to hate him because of his actions. However, you still love him in a way, and besides he is your child.
True, but do you really think that militias have any influence within the Republican Party? Come on, the neocons don't give a crap aout those idiots. But it's different with the Democrats, the "no blood for oil" types carry a little more weight. Not much though.
I think you don't give enough credit to the arguments of the right. They don't see them as kids at all, that is way off. Extremist religous terrorists is a good enough description. And the empires of old are nothing like the current US. The old empires would have blown up a country like Iraq a long time ago and taken over the oil for themsleves. And why are we opening our markets to our biggest competitor (China?) It's a completely different time in history, the world has changed, and I think it's ignorant to compare the US to an empire like Rome.
How many Chinese companies were allowed to bid on the Iraqi reconstruction contracts? In the reconstruction of Japan, zero big U.S. companies were given rebuilding contracts. This is just a joke. I'll believe we are doing something right when the U.S. let's Iraq decides the contracts for rebuilding, or at least has real competitive bidding.
