Member of Clutch City before it was clutchcity.net, before clutchcity.com. I've been lurking a lot, but still read here every day, probably too much. D&D has served as an invaluable resource for me to learn about the different sides (usually extreme sides) of numberous hot topics- W vs Kerry, Gun control, religion, terrororism, etc. Most of it is poo-flinging but occasionally someone will put up well-stated point-by-point defenses of their take on something, often citing sources that I can read for reference. I often learn something I didn't know before, although it will often be a take on the extreme right or left. If the place got shut down I wouldn't cry, though, there is so much animosity and hate in here. And it would save me some time each day, that much less to read.
i think some people's opinions change because of the D&D, my stance on drugs has changed from andymoon, and i've turned conservative to moderate, albeit going to a Catholic University changed that. Im more interested in the D&D to understand the logic behind the way people with differing opinions think. On top of that, I'm also interested in their reactions to arguments against their beliefs. In otherwords, this is very useful info and ammo for political or controversial real-life conversations. My dad is pretty conservative, and you have no idea how many times i've stumped him by using battle hardened arguments from the D&D. And this is a guy with 4 degrees rendered inarticulate.
It's not all garbage, though most of it is. There was a thread not to long ago where I thought Basso (not my political compadre at all) initiated a good conversation on Kerry and Iraq without it degenerating into garbage. It was a worthwhile use of my reading time from my perspective. It was good debate I think. I learned things. It made me think. Unsurprisingly, most of the cretins stayed out because it was vaguely substantive. I think creating the D&D as a sewer for the BBS was pretty good strategy, it does contain the special kids pretty well. I don't think folks realize how their posts read or sound to someone else of differring views. Being smug or affectionately patronizing may sound cool as the Fonz to the writer, but its a different story to those who read it. Most people here are not funny writers at all, but most people write D&D posts as if they are funny writers. There are a couple of people who seem like they are overdue for being banned, but they still seem to linger. Some posters seem to post a really high percentage of garbage. Arguing with them is like giving them a lapdance -- they live for that crap. It's not the conclusion or the truth they are after, it's the fight. They love the fight. Sure enough, there is always a sucker ready to hop in the ring. I've been suckered into those. Who hasn't. But its fine, it works, it does the job for cheap. Percentage wise -- though I dont really visit any other boards -- I would imagine the CF.net BBS Forums are less weighed down by posts from bored trolls. The neighborhood seems pretty high-end considering its the internet and it's -- and please, let's take a moment to think about this small point -- FREE. It's still a remarkably well-run community. Out of respect for the guys who set this up with their time and money, it's be nice if this forum could have a little less sewage. If people tried to pretend they were posting in the voice of a PBS commentator -- or the Christian Science Monitor or some other low-key publication -- rather than Crossfire, The O'Reilly Factor, Politically Incorrect, or other more inflammatory media -- we'd be better off. "Having strong views" and "being a massive a**hole" are easily confused, but not at all the same. It's be cool if people could check their posts for things that might sound like they were written by a massive a**hole. I definitely have my 'smug voice' and my 'rational voice' -- the first is easier, the second takes more thought. I don't know about other people, but I think if you erased the mocking and 'humor' from the posts, this forum would thin out for the better. But then, people would probably move their garbage back to the hangout and attack people for their opinons in the "I Love Swedish Fish" thread. This forum has its moments. I read it alot.
The lack of civil discourse in the D&D is a direct reflection of the lack of civil discourse in the country. I would love to try to change it. Perhaps we could be an example.
I don't mind the immature post at all, but it is true that it is a contradiction to your other, "mr. saint" post .
I'm confused too. Who made you the thought police? The signs are all there: You've been dosing out verbal warnings a lot lately and you answer questions just like a cop does, "Because I said so! Move along. CASE CLOSED. GOOD DAY. " What gives? P.S. don't forget to report this post.
Does anyone seriously think that only the liberals or only the conservatives want the forum shut down because clearly they know they are going to lose the election and they want to avoid the embarrassment? Seriously? That was my point.
Poo is just soft and sticky. It doesn't really hurt anybody to get hit with it. It's the anonymous nature of the internet that allows people to say things they would never say in person. That can be good in that it allows one to express ideas that might get you stigmatized in real life or it can be bad in that there is no reciprocal need for decorm. Why threaten the good part because of the bad part? Why punish the general population for the sins of individuals? It seems much productive to just ban individuals as needed. If the moderators feel there is too much personal responsibility in making that decision, don't. It's too easy just to register under a new name for the decision to be difficult. Heck if you think someone should be banned , post a poll on them and take a board vote. We will share in our own policing. But without the non-violent option afforded by the D & D, your just asking for a huge increase in the number of bar fights your loyal patrons will be maimed or injured in.
All you have to do is accept my challenge and that sig goes away. IMO, you are the worst that this forum has to offer and are the cause of much of the vitriol and bile that gets spewed here. I don't believe I am being hypocritical because when I am in an honest debate with someone, I do everything possible to be respectful and try to avoid insults at all costs. This does NOT apply to you since you don't seem to have the ability to hold a rational, intelligent, reasoned debate as evidenced by your avoidance of my challenge. I admit that I do goad, but it is only you that I take that position with since you are really the only poster here who can ONLY uses slogans, insults, and venomous bile. Even bamaslammer, with his tendency toward hyperbole, regularly shows the ability to reasonably discuss certain topics. You have never shown me that you have that ability and as such, the only thing you are worthy of is my derision. Accept my challenge and prove me wrong, if you dare.
I'd have to disagree...there are several who qualify at least as much; plus, I have seen quite a few knowledgable posts from T_J on topic, especially on economic questions.
you go girl... I mean Andy good post. tj is one of the worst when it comes to slinging poo,even though I'm no angel either. he needs to stop talking down to people and try and start talking to them.
While I do not disagree that t_j seems to have some knowledge of economics, it is the manner in which he posts that I take issue with. Even in the middle of an otherwise intelligent discussion of economic policy, he seems to find it necessary to berate, insult, and deride other posters along with "left wing kook fringe liberals," which in my book makes his good points on economics moot. I guess I just find it ultimately humorous that the one guy on this board who proclaims his brilliance at every turn will turn tail and run from a debate with ME of all people. I mean, the only topic that I actually consider myself an expert on is drug policy (and computers, which doesn't help me in a debate on public policy) and with the parameters I set up for the challenge, t_j would have the deck seriously stacked in his favor. I really can't think of even a single poster who slings even CLOSE to as much poo as he does, unless I qualify with the poo I sling at him.
Jorge, Most everyone realizes that the D&D Forum has become dominated by hatred. Hate has become the culture of this forum and it eventually infects people who post here often. (This is why I have stayed out for the most part, and maintained my sanity) You enjoy pointing out that RocketMan Tex hasn't always been civil in his discussion, but you are guilty of this too, and some may say that your pointing out this flaw in them is just a continuation of the hate that is going back and forth. The difference is that Rocketman Tex, (and Chance too) has said that he is willing to give up on this vicious cycle and willing to explore new and better ways in the search for truth. You, Jorge, have not expressed such a desire to end this vicious cycle, but that does not mean I have lost faith in you. I hope that you too will join us in our efforts to better this forum. It begins now. Dear fellow Clutchfans, both posters and lurkers, Please read the posts that are calling for a change, and don't dismiss them as a fad: we now have both conservative and liberal voices that are pushing for a change. The idea that, "If you don't like the way the D&D works, then stay out" is no longer valid because now many of the regular D&D posters are unhappy with it. The D&D does not use healthy discussion and as human beings in a democracy, twisted dialogue should not become a habit of ours! We all know that this forum has its good moments and should not be gotten rid of, but at the same time, we must be honest with ourselves and realize that most of it has not been good moments. The good moments occur when posters of different viewpoints come together in a sincere search for truth. The bad moments (which are most prevalent) occur when a post is made in order to fight. Ex: News articles are posted in order to rub a defeat into someone elses face. Ex: Edgy language is used to mock and goad one another. This all needs to stop, because we get nowhere with this. We must adopt the view that we are all searching for truth, and that means we ought to be open to each other's ideas. Like CBrownFanClub said: "If people tried to pretend they were posting in the voice of a PBS commentator -- or the Christian Science Monitor or some other low-key publication -- rather than Crossfire, The O'Reilly Factor, Politically Incorrect, or other more inflammatory media -- we'd be better off.... It's be cool if people could check their posts for things that might sound like they were written by a massive a**hole." All of us need to change our attitude in this forum. Have you noticed that the GARM has its share of trolls and hate, but the regular posters know how to keep civil discourse prevalent? Its an unwritten code that is maintained by the regular posters and it makes the forum have more good moments than bad. The reason we don't have such a code here is because nobody knew what this forum was for: was it "debate", as in a Crossfire type yelling at each other (that eventually denigrates to name calling), or was it "discussion" as in a sincere and honest sharing of ideas and search for truth? I think it is time that we can agree; the Crossfire method has utterly failed. This does not mean we cannot debate in our discussions, but there is a different attitude one has when they go out with the intent to "debate", and when they go out with the intent to "discuss." As I've said before, we can truly make this forum something special. I've seen the good moments it has had, and I don't see why we cannot make the good moments a majority and the bad moments a minority. Here's my solution: 1) Please read the suggestions by those calling for civil discussion in this thread. Also read "D&D Lurkers: Sound off" by Batman Jones. Let's all be on the same page. 2) When you post, go in with the intention to discuss like PBS in a search for truth, rather than drawing lines in the sand and fighting. I know it will be strange at first, but if you really want to improve this forum, PLEASE give this new method a try. 3) If you see a poster that is trying to goad, deceive, and use dirty tricks in their arguments, politely point out what they are doing and DO NOT respond to them, (or insult them). Erasing politics from your sigs will be helpful too. We can't respond to these tactics or else it just adds fuel to the fire. There are posters here in the D&D that enjoy the insults and fighting and it is for this very reason that they come here and start fights. It is these trolls that have won, by turning every thread into a poo-flinging contest. If you resort to their ways, they win no matter what. Conservatives and liberals, if this poo-flinger is part of your idealogy, you MUST voice out against your own. These trolls, whether touting conservative or liberal views, hurt ALL of us. Write a post telling him that he is WRONG in how he/she is making the point. We must keep the dirty tactics out of our own idealogies before pointing out the tactics being used by the other side. We must regulate ourselves as the GARM does. 4) LURKERS, this is your chance to change the forum into a healthier environment. Even if you do not like posting, please sacrifice some of your time and thoughts to contribute to this new attitude. Fresh voices and new ideas are needed in order for us to change. 5) Finally, if you do not understand the type of "discussion" I'm advocating, I am going to create a thread as an example. The thread about, "what policies would YOU do in order to fight terrorism" There is one special rule for my thread that I ask that you comply with though: talking about George W. Bush or Kerry is NOT allowed. Do not even mention their names. This thread is meant to be like a town meeting. The thread will be called "The War on Terror: What would you do?" And I'm writing it in order to set an example for how I think we can run this forum. Thank you for reading, Please be patient with these efforts. It'll take time, but the more we stick to this new attitude, the better this forum is going to be. Give this method a try, and see how it is. We have nothing to lose: the D&D cannot get any worse than it already is. I know that andymoon, Rocketman Tex, Chance, and CBrownFanClub are with me on this, but we need more of you to join us as well. So, are you in? (Currently out of lurkmode) Pimphand24
I have a question: Why do people enjoy watching boxing on TV? There are certain limits, set by rules, which you cannot exceed, or you lose. However, people are still beating each other up, and others enjoy watching it. I think it's the same here. I don't understand some of the lamenting going on about how polarized the D&D is... Of course it is polarized - by design. And it's okay when people have heated and controversial discussions, goad and bait - as long as they do not exceed certain limits (direct name calling, racist remarks, etc.). I enjoy watching it. Just like I enjoy watching a good boxing match. Of course, that is not all...I also enjoy the information provided and learning about different viewpoints, yadayada...but the "fighting" is part of what makes this forum attractive. Imho, of course.
Just the other day Rimbaud called me an 'ass.' He didn't even insert his usual 'not to be mean.' I'm not calling for him to be banned. Sometimes people deserve to be mocked.
