Battier for Rudy Gay/Stromile is not paying dividends

There are no such numbers.

Here's the problem. We all watch the game. We all observe what went right and what went wrong on isolated plays. I know Battier doesn't run the fast break well. I know he's not a great post up option (he essentially has two moves, a right jump hook and a left jump hook).

But to make an argument on overall trends, you need evidence. Do we fast break less effectively with Battier in the game? What is Battier's efficiency on his post ups. It's easy to pick apart what a player doesn't do well, and what he does well. But how do you put it altogether to give an a general assessment of their contributions? These are things you can't tell me, because you apparently think "stats" (i.e. actual recorded evidence from the game) are blasphemous. You rail against relying on "intangibles". But I'm asking you for tangible evidence.

We both want the same thing -- players on the court that give us the best shot of outscoring the other team. And there's no simple formula either. My question for you is how do you determine which players will help the most? What's your "methodology"? Is the information you use inherently unquantifiable? And, if so, who's the one relying on intangibles?

Really, I'm curious. I'm not looking to get into an argument or to disagree with you just for the sake of disagreeing. Maybe I'll learn something.

 

exactly, maybe luther should be getting some battier minute. i think adelman envisioned battier being like christie. but doug could handle the ball as well as shoot and run a brake. battier is a really good three point shooter, but he is a very limited offensive player.

 

Every day they said Battier can't be measured by his numbers and still, you din't get the message!

 

Didn't I tell you he was ALMOST. He always has his hand up after they already shoot it over him. Great Defense.

Its ok cuz francis is our savior

 

It's been said but battier was a better fit with JVG than RA.

That and he hasn't been playing well in general highlights the imagined "lopsidedness" of the draft day trade (imo good trade, but gave up too much). But again, Gay would not be the player he is today if he didn't land in Memphis. He wouldn't have got the time he needed to develop, that and where would his shots come from?

And besides, who cares about pointing out the failures of rockets management? Every franchise has made, and will continue to make, the wrong gambles. It's part of having to judge this thing we call 'potential.' It's not easy and it's hard to get it right. Otherwise every team would be permanently great right? Always drafting/signing the right players and knowing how much to play them etc etc. But all teams have building/rebuilding phases, and some great ones never get that ring. Sometimes fortune has a great deal to do with it.

There's simply no point in crying about it and talking about how 'stupid' management was. I mean what purpose does it serve? What do you want from them? A letter saying, 'yes, according to fantasy stats we completely f**ked up?' All it does is create negativity and debate. Suck it up and man up for f**ks sake.

Battier has more to give and he'll show it with time.

 

I agree that the arguement that the rockets wouldn't have taken Rudy Gay any way is a poor one. The point is they had the opportunity to take him, whether they would have or not. That being said every draft prospect is a gamble. Sometimes you get a Josh Howard, some times you get a Michael Olowokandi or Sam Bowie. The Rocket's felt Shane would help them win now, and he still might. His ceiling is lower than Rudy's, but he certainly isn't a bad player despite being in a bit of a shooting slump right now. Comparing scoring averages doesn't matter because Gay is a primary scorer and Battier a role player. Shane attempts 10 shots per 48 minutes, Rudy takes 20. I think Rudy could help us, but that doesn't mean I don't think Shane has value too. At any rate I still don't know what the point of the thread is beyond venting. I mean if we want to lament recent bad draft choices Eddie Griffin costing us Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins was much worse than the Battier trade.

 

steve campbell?

 

No, you won't. Like most people, his method is probably (1) knee-jerk reaction (2) casting about for anything to support that reaction (3) rejecting outright any evidence that might call said reaction into question.

 

This is his 7th year in the league. How much more time does he need? After 7 years, don't you think what you see is what you get?

I get your point about whining about the past. I know there's nothing we can do about it now and I know that every team makes bad personel decisions etc.

For me, it's just about admitting the trade was not a good one. I've been defending it for a year now and it's actually kind of therapeutic for me to finally realize that I was wrong.

 

evidence, wins losses, playoffs

 

Battier is an elite role player. CD / DM were getting pats on the back from all the other GMs the night that trade went down. With Shane, you have someone who understands the game to the extent that a coach does. Also, he makes Tmac better by guarding the other teams best player. Supporters of Shane have said it since day one, SHANE'S VALUE DOES NOT SHOW UP IN ANY TRADITIONAL STAT SHEET.

If you track deflections, charges taken, and contested shots, you would see Shane and Chuck at the top of that list. Rudy will be an excellent player, but for people to suggest that we got very little in return is lunacy.

 

vince young wins
david carr sucks
francis has low bbiq

just another day on Clutchfans.net

 

By that logic, the trade to get Tmac, drafting Yao/extending his contract, picking Luther Head, etc. have all been poor choices. Why pick on this one trade when your "evidence" applies equally to all decisions that have been made by the Rockets?

 

no, that is the logic for the trade. win now. the rockets were a better team after trading for t mac, much better (this coming from one of francis's biggest fans). they were a better team after drafting yao (although it took time). they are not much better than they were after mcgrady's first year here.

but overall my issue is this, if they don't make it out the first round, its a bad trade, because it doesn't matter what rudy does, that was the logic behind the trade.

 

I think maybe we need to discuss the Richard Jefferson trade too !

maybe the Rox should hire Van Gundy back, just so they can fire him again...



...If Gay were so good, he and Gasol should be able to get their 5-10 team up to .500


on a final note, I think the real problem with Shane, is that Chuck "Mis-Layps" Hayes, and Rafer "the Brick" Alson are also in the starting lineup makes the attention on his lack of scoring more intense

 

Shane is an elite role player, it's just that Rudy has the potential to be an solid primary player. Of course at the time of the draft that is all a gamble at best. In the draft times you get a stud sometimes you get a dud. I still lament the Eddie Griffin for Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins trade alot more. It is all water under the bridge now.

In the context of the present, I would not consider Battier untradeable in this system by any means, but nor would I look to dump him to the first bidder. I consider the Bruce Bowen comparisons to be fairly accurate. The problem is that Shane has been our 3rd best player for most of the time since arriving while Bowen is the 5th or 6th best player, if that, for the Spurs.

 

ask Hakeem. He took his play to another level around that time. (No, not comparing Battier to the Greatest, just saying you can get better in your late 20's/early 30's

IMO, the jury is still out on Shane. Gay is gonna be a good player for a while and Stromile is still garbage.

Probably would prefer Gay, but I like Shane. He's better than a lot of you are giving him credit for, and worse than some of you who praise his intangibles.

I hated the deal at the time, but at this point I'm on the fence

 

Sorry, I just don't buy that. Robert Horry was an elite role player. Mario Elie was an elite role player. Bruce Bowen is an elite role player. I'll take any of those guys over Shane.

I'm not saying we got nothing, just that we should have gotten more.

This trade is a trade you make if you were ousted in the Western Conference Finals in 7 games the previous year and you just need a solid role player like Shane to put you over the top. It’s not a trade you make if you haven’t been out of the first round of the playoffs in 10 years.

 

Even Les felt that we didn't get enough out of giving up the 8th pick. If we could gotten the 24th pick and been sharp enough to pick Mo Ager we would been better off. Ager showed good shooting touch,size and quickness in the limited minutes in the playoffs against Golden State.Getting Battier was a short sighted move for a very slow moving team. It's true Shane's value doesn't show up on a stat sheet and he surprised me with the winner against the Lakers but his weaknesses are also evident.

 

An all-around game would entail the ability to do something, anything that wouldn't require his ardent supporters to cling to obscure +/- numbers and "intangibles" as his virtues.