Battier can be the Sensei, but Budinger is clearly the starter.

You were using the box score to make your point about passing.

So on one hand you are saying the boxscore proves it, and it shows up in the stats, and then on the other hand you are saying the boxscore doesn't matter in the case of Shane.

So, which is it?

DD

 

Pure point rating and assist ratio are no box score stats.

Can we agree to disagree now?

 

Whereas I agree with most of your post, I cannot concur with the bolded part. Bud is a superior passer to almost anyone on the team (got to except Ish and maybe Scola -- superior -- and Lee and maybe Martin -- equal). Have you seen the crisp, PG-quality passes / assists he awards to open teammates?

 

Sure we can agree to disagree.

One caveat though, the pure PG rating does not account for things like roles etc.

There is a vast difference in what Kyle Lowry is asked to do as PG versus Aaron Brooks.

One is supposed to set up his teamates more often and draw fouls, while the other is supposed to score the ball and then set up his teamates some.

I wish there was a stat that accounted for given roles, but there just isn't....it is why folks that argue about Lowry starting are making an incomplete point, they are not comparing apples to apples.

Same thing with Battier and Bud about who is the better passer....

Either way, I agree we disagree....

I am just in the right.

:grin:

DD

 

I was thinking about this the other day, and I think Morey agrees. I say this due to his track record in recent transactions.

After 2 years of Shane Battier, he's traded for Ron Artest (to presumably start, with TMac at the 2), signed Trevor Ariza (again to pair along the wing with TMac), and *probably* has made a run at Carmelo Anthony.

Ron left us to get his ring and Ariza was *arguably* not the right fit. TMac was injured both years so Ron/Ariza and Battier all sort of played out of position or, maybe more accurately, shared the wing spots.

Not to crap on my own point, but you could chalk this up to DM just trying to increase our talent level regardless of position. He obviously wanted Bosh and Cousins, despite the fact that we had Scola, Hayes, and Hill (before the flame, I guess you could argue that Cousins is a 5).

I think upgrading the 3 has now become undeniable. I love Shane and hope he retires a Rocket. But he needs to be splitting time with Air Bud... and it needs to be at least 60/40 Bud.

 

Yes, you mentioned the roles thing earlier. I just think your ovaerstating the roles thing. If Brooks was a better passer, then his role would be to pass more. Since he isn't, he's not asked to pass so much. Same with Lowry- since he's not a good a scorer, he's not asked to ISO and take his man one-on-one.

 

Fair enough. I'm not saying Bud is a bad passer. I just think Battier is quite underrated in the passing department.

 

There have been several good takes on this thread and this is one of the them. I think I like C-Bud on the second unit for now.

 

I am not overstating the role thing, I am accepting that it is part of the equation.

Brooks is being asked to score the ball, especially last year, when he had only Scola as another efficient offensive player in the starting lineup for most of the year....

Lowry has finishers, his job is to run, and to hit people for wide open shots.

It was not a coincidence that Brooks assists went up when Budinger started, or when KMart got to Houston, he had players that could finish and adjusted his role a bit to compensate for it.

Brooks is a very good passer, he has nice court vision, you can see it when he passes to Yao on the PnR, or the baseline wrap around pass...the difference is that Brooks looks to score and passes off of his scoring ops...whereas Lowry looks to make a move to set up a pass...it is a different mindset.

By proxy, Lowry is a better passer, but not by as much as folks think, he is tasked with passing...that is his role.....Brooks is tasked with scoring, that is his role.

Same position, different tasks.....

It is why it is 100% mind numbing to argue with people who only look at stats, they don't tell the whole story...

If there was a way to factor in roles etc...the stats would get even more accurate....but right now, they are just a decent tool to include as part of any good analysis.

And I love stats...LOVE EM....but I trust my educated eye more.....Just look at these stats:

Who Posted?
Total Posts: 69
Username Posts
Mr. Clutch 17
DaDakota 11
BrooksBall 7
knote32 5
RV6 4
larsv8 4
AroundTheWorld 2

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


DD

 

By the way, lars, the people who say that Battier's value goes beyond the box score are often the SAME people who look at advanced stats like the ones I posted. DARYL MOREY comes to mind.

So try to understand what someone is saying before flaming them.

 

Knote, you just answered your own question in the justification for Shane starting.....

You put all your firepower on the floor to start the game and what does that leave you when the second unit comes in? Brad Miller and Lowry as your scorers? Shane is there for the balance of offense and defense in the beginning. because Shane doesn't need to score and can conserve energy on defense.

Since Chase is by far a better offensive player, he comes off the bench. unless you are prepared to bench Martin, Yao, Scola, or Brooks, we don't need that many scorers on the floor at the same time. The coach that puts his best 5 scorers on the floor to start versus his best "1" unit is a fool of a coach. You put Shane in the second unit and now we need him to be a scorer. Not good.....

 

Ya i wouldn't mind if Chase started in certain games, particularly against teams who don't have an elite wing like the NO or the Knicks. But against teams like the lakers, Miami or nuggets, I would still start shane. Chase would not be out running and shooting as much if he spent most of his energy chasing and guarding opposing top scoring threats.

 

Career stats:

Budinger: FG% - 0.441 3PT% - 0.369

Battier: FG% - 0.443 3PT% - 0.385

 

I agree with DD on this.

Lowry and AB's roles are different. Last year AB was task with scoring. He was close to 20PPG and 5 APG player. Now just like Brent Barry and Chris Webber both said, this year will be different with Yao coming back. Brooks will need to focus more on passing this year. Does this mean he won't shoot anymore? No, but I think we need to wait this year to see how AB fits with this starting lineup. He's been task with scoring ever since Yao was injuried.

As for Lowry, he fits well because he's asked to attack the basket and find the open man. He still struggles with shooting and I don't think that's going to change by now.

As for CBud and Shane, Shane is declining and everyone can see it. Bud is getting better and has a smart basketball IQ. I think he'll get more minutes but I still think D. Morey wants an upgrade at that position. I think Bud has a high ceiling but I'm not sold that Morey wants to keep him at that position. It's still too early to make that call. Let's see what happens.

 

TEACHER, TEACHER! Mr. Clutch is chewing gum!

I counted how many times you edited your posts. That puts you at 25 posts in this thread.

 

So you are now making up stats....lol....I am just giving you a taste of your own medicine...everyone knows you can't count that high anyway.



Now you are ON THE LIST .....

THE LIST ....my man......you better watch yourself.....the LIST....



DD

 

Er... not when you're talking about shooting percentage. The ball either goes through the hoop or it doesn't.

I would agree that Chase has the potential to be a much better shooter than Shane is at this point in his career, but to say that Chase is an "elite" shooter is just, well, flat-out wrong.

 

Topfive,

Why would you compare career stats when it only has one year of data for CBud and many years for Shane.

Wouldn't it be more prudent to compare last year only?

Also, are you saying Battier will get back to his career average, and CBud has peaked in his rookie year?

I don't know if CBud is an elite shooter but there are sure a lot of announcers that say he has a sweet stroke, and most of them played in the NBA at one point.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

DD