Wow, thanks for sharing. That is an incredible story, and like you said, most of that would never happen in America. It would be all over the news, there would be multiple lawsuits, etc., would be a huge story. It is actually required of any hospital here that someone in the hospital staff wheel you to your vehicle at discharge time, there is no way to get around it, it is required. And people complain about us...give me a break. It really gives you a sense of how blessed we are to live in the United States of America. God Bless America, indeed. Get well.
I agree logicx. Long story but I had a pretty incredible experience in Mexico a few years back where the cops staged an accident and tried to take my rental car and put me in jail (they told me the $200 bribe I was offering - all I had to my name then - wasn't enough) and barely escaped it. I guess I just have bad luck. But getting into situations like that really makes you appreciate America. I criticize our country a lot for the things I think those in charge should be doing better. But when it comes to taking care of people, even though it sometimes doesn't do enough, it does a better job of treating people justly and with respect than anyone else in the world.
It may be an issue with luck, but your story is very easy to believe, Mexico is famous for that. (And this comes from me, who just happens to be an American with some Mexican blood in him) My brother was recently stopped by police there and had to "bribe" them to get them to let him go, his alternative was not pretty and let's just say the cop wouldn't give him a receipt for his payment. Lol to him actually trying to get one, he's stubborn like that. My Father's told me of countless stories of Mexican authorities (at different levels) who are corrupt and if they weren't the ones who aided in stealing your car, they wouldn't help you get it back. It's everywhere there. Like you said, I have my beef with our country, and I think it's fair, I think that's what makes America great, that we can criticize and complain and hopefully make things better. But your posts, I think, have helped people, me, at least get some perspective on things and realize that I am pretty blessed to be here in America. Thanks again and hope your luck changes! Try Canada next time! (Although, I'm not sure about their hospitals, either...similar healthcare system to Netherlands, I think)
Wow BJ that really is amazing. I'm shocked, that is not how you treat people. About the pain medication, the people you heard from are right. People here seldom take pain medication. And if we do it is usually only aspirin, however in a hospital it is supposed to be different, there they do give you strong pain medication. I never take pain killers (the only time I take them was after my wisdom teeth were pulled and it hurt like hell, and when i had surgery on my knee). I think the reason is both that it build character, and that many people believe that if you take it for everything it won't work when you are in real pain. But I'm shocked that they did not give you morphine Onze lieve vrouwe gasthuis is a reasonable hospital, mostly you want to go to the hospitals that are affiliated with a university (like the AMC in Amsterdam). They are the best for surgery. But you had no choice to which hospital they took you . The Dutch can be rude, I have to agree with that. They are usually very honest and direct, which can become rude. Taxi drivers in Amsterdam are rude, and not social. I'm sorry but they are known for that. It is pretty annoying also for Dutchman. Also the reason people didn't act surprises that you were hit by a taxi, is because it happens a lot. I do agree that they should have showed some sympathy (which is normal here) That people didn't hold a door open for you is kind of strange, most Dutch do do that especially for someone in a wheelchair. Again there is no excuse for it. The way the staff of the hospital treated you is also inexcusable. I have no idea why they acted that way. Again normally they treat you better. My experiences with hospitals is very different (except the fact that they didn't communicate properly). I have no idea why they acted that way. I can understand that you are upset and not happy with the Dutch at the moment, of course I’m not your typically Dutch (much smarter, and Arrogant ). Next time you are in such an situation send me an e-mail or call me, I might be able to help. Next time you come here let me know, I will show the good parts of the Netherlands, and try and improve your opinion of us as a country, (although I'm not to happy with many of the Dutch at the moment http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=170075).
I think it was more an issue of attitude than the health care system itself. I felt like they actually did have a good health care system but just didn't want to be helpful, like there was a sense of pride in getting patients to fend for themselves - again, as though that would build character. Neither sympathy nor empathy was on the menu. But my experience was that that was a cultural thing and wasn't specific to the health care system. If this turns into a health care debate I guess it will need to move to D&D, but I don't believe there are only two options (socialized health care with an indifferent attitude vs. millions uninsured and only cared for in emergency). I think there's an obvious third way, the only major drawback of which is that it's expensive. But if we're going to spend money on something I'd rather it be on caring for citizens and non-citizens than on, say, killing people. Not trying to derail though. Bottom line, my experience was that the culture there was one of indifference to people in need. That experience began with our cab ride from the airport at the end of which the driver dropped us four blocks one way and two blocks to the left after that with five heavy bags and no directions. He just sort of gestured in the general direction and said it's right down there. We walked for an hour with our bags and asked four people for help before we finally found our hotel. Every person we approached for help gave us the same indifferent gesture in a general direction. I'm sorry to say this, especially with our friend arno_ed here, but they just came off as a bunch of jerks.
Also, ironically, the corner we were dropped at on that first cab ride was the same one on which I was hit by a cab later that night. The driver on that first ride dropped us there because he said he shouldn't drive down that street since there was so much foot traffic. I guess the guy that hit me didn't get the memo.
Definitely didn't mean to get into a healthcare debate, don't like debates, they usually don't go anywhere, just referring to healthcare when talking about the long surgery wait/payment up front issues. There definitely seems to be a cultural difference with the people, which is interesting. Almost makes me not want to be to frustrated with it if that's just how the culture is, it's hard to fault someone for how they were raised or what they were raised in, but still makes you appreciative of how people are here, I guess.
Thanks, arno_ed. I will take you up on that. To be clear, it wasn't that they refused to open a door; it was that every single time I had to ask someone. That was so weird to me. It's instinctive to me to open a door for someone in a wheelchair. Every time I asked someone would do it, but every time I had to ask. I mean, like I would be parked by a door with a handle on it that I clearly couldn't even reach and people would just walk right by me until I asked for help. Then they would open it, I would say thanks and they would say nothing. I know it's just a different culture but it's hard to read that as anything but callous. To be fair, when I was finally preparing to leave the hospital I went outside for a smoke and when I was wheeling myself back in a woman asked me something in Dutch. I said, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Dutch." She said, "I was asking if you can manage alright." I said, "Yes, but thank you. I've been here three days and you're the first person that's asked me that."
I had to reply to this specifically as well. Why in God's name is that allowed to be the case? That is insane. If people are getting hit by cabs a lot, they should start arresting cab drivers. Instead, they send them letters asking if they'd like to come give a statement and give them three weeks to construct a lie or flee or hit someone else while the victims pay for their own care. If the people of Amsterdam accept that cabs just hit people a lot, it's no wonder that they feel okay about hitting people and then driving away. I used to dream of visiting Amsterdam. I used to think I'd like to retire there one day. Now I think it is the most screwed up Western country around.
I figured I wasn't going to say anything if you weren't, but now that you bring it up...let me beat the dead horse again, one more thing you can appreciate here in the U.S. is the rule of law...it't not perfect, but you can't hit somebody with a vehicle and not get hauled of to jail immediately. Thank God for that.
Don't worry I can handle it. With your experience I would probably feel teh same way. What you are describing is indeed more a cultural thing than a system thing, The Dutch health care system works quite well (although there has been some debate on that in the Dutch politics). However What you describe is not how I see the Dutch culture. I'm actually quite shocked at how you were treated. The Dutch are indeed people who feel the need to fend for themselves, and seldom ask for help (mostly man feel it is a sign of weakness to ask for help, woman do not have this problem). However it is normal to offer help to others in need. I'm shocked nobody kept the door open for you, even if they did hold it open for you after you asked. Especially if you are in a wheelchair, people are supposed to help you and hold the door open for you. I do have to say that in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, utrecht and the other 'Big" cities people are much more self centred than in the rest of the Netherlands. People in cities tend to mind their own business. But it is inexcusable how they treated you. About the cabs. There has been a lot of discussions about the safety of Taxies in Amsterdam. However Dutchman seldom get hit by a cab, it are usually tourists. I believe they are trying to make it safer but for some reason it hasn't worked that well. However it doesn't happen that often, but it is something you know can happen, since the cabs in Amsterdam are not famous for their social driving skills. I would never want to live in Amsterdam, just not my type of people, and I hate crowds. When you come here I will show you my home town Wageningen, it is a great town to life in much more social people.
It's a deal. Thanks. And thanks too for talking some of this out with me. It's helpful for me in resolving my anger about the whole thing to have some understanding about the culture so I don't take it so personally.
No problem, it is the least I can do, when my country men treated you so badly. When I read what you went trough I'm upset I couldn't come to Amsterdam. I wasn't aware that they treated you so badly, and I was very busy at work Thursday. Again don't take it personally, and remember that you only met a small portion of the Dutch (and like I said before not the most social part). We are not that all that terrible.
Not that she is in the Netherlands often. Oh a bit of topic, SJC what do you think about the acquisition of Van Gaal? I’m a bit sceptical, I think he will be at war with the media in Germany within a couple of months.
It's been about 20 years since I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, but the several times I was there prior to that, on extended visits, I had nothing remotely like your experience with the Dutch people. Amsterdam, more than the other large cities, is "different," due the the huge influx of tourists during the tourist season. The locals, while many make a lot of money off of tourists, are, in the main, just regular Dutch citizens and may be rather tired of their city becoming a "Disneyland" for tourists during the tourist season. Don't assume the rest of the Netherlands is anything like Amsterdam, or even that the majority of the Dutch who live in Amsterdam are like those you experienced, either. Having said that, after your experience, I'd be furious as well. Just be careful with the "broad brush." Amsterdam is a small canvas, compared to the rest of the country.
