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Baseball America discusses Astros' top prospects

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by bigtexxx, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    let's attempt to have this discussion without freaking out...without personal insults. it hasn't gone real well before.

    baseball is a regular season sport. it just is. guys make the HOF who sucked or didn't even show up in the playoffs. that doesn't happen in other sports...particularly not hoops or hockey. baseball has a very long season to determine who the best teams are each season. in the NBA, more teams make the playoffs than don't. in MLB, even with the Wild Card additions, only 8 teams out of 30 make the playoffs each season.

    as a fan...the regular season is immensely important to me. a summer where the astros suck is a bad summer. a summer where they're not in the race is a bad summer. when they're in the hunt, it's entertaining. it's fun. i LONG big time for the day where the astros win a world series. someday, it will happen. but only one team wins the series each year...that doesn't mean that every other team in the bigs had a bad season because they weren't the ONE that won the world series. not in my view, anyway.

    under McLane, the astros have typically avoided the sucky, out-of-it summers i used to know as a kid. i was born in 74...the 80 season pretty much passed me by because i was only 6...as did 81. 86 was the first year i really was into the astros big time when they were a winner. when they were a legit team. and i didn't see anything close to that again for another 8 years, during the strike season. McLane took ownership and this franchise, that went absolutely playoff-bare for year after year suddenly found itself in the playoffs 5 times in the past 8 seasons...finising just one game from the World Series this past season. It is FAR AND AWAY the best baseball this franchise has every played on a consistent basis. it's been FAR more enjoyable, from my perspective, than the seasons I knew before. and it is an accomplishment...in baseball...to have that kind of steady continued success.
     
  2. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Stop making sense. It hurts their heads.

    Sorry, that goes against the first sentence in your post...
     
  3. msn

    msn Member

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    Outstanding. I love your dinstinction of baseball as a regular season sport from the others.
     
  4. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    Max, lets get something straight here; we (as in all fans), enjoy seeing our teams succeed rather than languish. There is no questioning that. And while I, and others here, appreciate the Astros moderate success, I'm not going to take a hollow statistic that lacks any real credibility to back it up and make it out to be some sort of great accomplishment, because it's not.
     
  5. msn

    msn Member

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    OK. Ask Pirate fans, Brewers or Reds fans whose 1994-2004 they'd rather have--theirs or the Astros.
     
  6. bigboymumu

    bigboymumu Member

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    You guys can have the consistent above average seasons. I prefer the rollercoaster rides that bring championships. (Marlins)

    Good post Max.
     
  7. Fegwu

    Fegwu Contributing Member

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    But Tim Pupura is believed to be as good if not btter. Hun no doubt was great and was beloved by a majority of Astros fans but we may not really miss him. Heck if Dreyton decides to sell the team then it could even get better for TP.
     
  8. redgoose

    redgoose Contributing Member

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    I would agree with you. I'd rather have a couple bad seasons but yet a couple World Series.

    However Florida fans would disagree for some reason. They have put together potentialy the best team in the NL this off season, and yet they will draw only 5,000-10,000 in attendance on a fair day this year.

    That's just sad.:(

    I'm really intrigued on what the players like Carlos Delgado will do if the team relocates to Las Vegas next year. I remember Mike Lowell having some sort of void in his contract about a new stadium or relocation. Anyone feel free to enlighten me if you know.:confused:

    Edit Found the Lowell clause: As part of the complicated four-year deal he signed last winter, Lowell can void his contract if the Marlins don’t have a stadium deal in place by Nov. 1. He may be able to make more money elsewhere, but he wants to stay in Florida. It’s likely that something will be worked out
     
    #28 redgoose, Feb 1, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2005
  9. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Contributing Member
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    Yeah, but most people who cite that as a reason for retiring don't have a spouse recovering from cancer. For that reason, I believe him. And he may go back to GMing eventually, but that doesn't mean that he didn't quit the Astros so he could be with her while she got better.
     
  10. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    What's so "rollarcoaster" about the Marlins seasons? It's actually a well-organized rebuilding process with some great luck.

    In 1996, the Marlins were 80-82. A decent team. Then they spent a ton of money in 97, going 92-70 and winning the WS with the help of that fat umpire Eric Gregg. Then the team was taken apart, accumulating MANY prospects and high picks in the process. The following season, the Marlins had 54, 64, 79, 76, 79, and 91 wins. The 91 win season was their WS run in 2003.

    The Marlins rebuilding process took 6 years. During this time, their fans had to suffer 5 years of basically no hope, while waiting for their great prospects(high draft picks and via trades) to finally come of age and prosper. And in this process, they pretty much lost all fan base.

    And they are the ultimate success story, not a semi-success like the As or the Twins. No other team has been able to duplicate their success. Pretty much no other team has been able to gather 2 WS titles in less than a decade without being a perennial contender anyway.
     
  11. NJRocket

    NJRocket Contributing Member

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    Marlins will make the playoffs this year....their lineup in ridiculous and their pitching staff ain't too shabby either
     
  12. Milos

    Milos Member

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    Max,

    I understand what you are saying...believe me. But I think the point for some is that getting so close to the top every year only increases the pain of the heartbreaking losses that inevitably bring every 5th-best year to an end.

    Being good enough to come close, yet never finishing on top is, IMO, WORSE than being out of it 7 out of the last 8 years and winning at least one ring. At least if you know a team is out of it, it takes the expectations away that can be so heartbreaking for a diehard fan. And if your team has already won once, it can make the pain of losing easier to take each time you remember that magical season (like me and the Rockets for the past decade).

    But we, as Stros fans, have no such triumphs to comfort us when each new year approaches. We only have hope that this will finally be the year when we break through. But if it didn't happen last year, I see no reason it will this year after losing Beltran, Kent and Miller.

    Or in 98 when we lost DK...
    Or in 99 when we lost Randy...
    Or in 2000 when we lost Hampton and Everett...
    Or in 01 when we lost Alou...
    Or next year when we lose the Rocket...oh nevermind (now I'm depressed again)

    Let's face it...last year was OUR year, and it just didn't happen. Maybe we are the new Red Sox, and have to wait another 30 years for a ring (oh wait, that's the Cubs still).

    Plus, for many the assumption is that McClane is purposely keeping us just close enough to keep lining his pockets. I don't believe that, but any shrewd billionaire knows how to fool people when he wants to. I'm not saying Drayton is doing that to Astros fans, but I can see where some might have that opinion.
     
  13. BSW

    BSW Contributing Member

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    Can you name me a team in the free agency era that has not had a change during the off-season?

    I have to agree with you that I don't think Drayton is keeping us close enough to just line his pockets. He would make more money if his team won the World Series plus with the moves he makes every season to make the team better shows me that he really wants to win.
     
  14. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Your Tweety Bird dance just cost us a run

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    I just can't agree with that statement. I'm a diehard, and I take every loss very badly. Obviously postseason losses and season-enders. But I have an exciting summer when the Stros are in a race, and I'm happy when they're winning games. That one season where they dipped was absolutely horrible.

    You're saying you'd rather have 7 years like that and 1 ring? Sure I'd love the ring. But to not be a perennially good team and to not build a championship team...so many things wrong with that.

    a) The pure misery of bad seasons.
    b) If you're "close" for 8 years as you say, that gives you a shot every year. If pieces fall the right way, you could make it to the WS. That's not bad, even if you're not the favorite.
    c) I wouldn't want to be known as that team that got lucky and made it one year...or bought all its players for 1 year and then firesold em all. If you're talking about poor teams all years except a ring year, you're talking about winning a team with a bunch of guys who aren't really "Astros". I'd rather win it with at least a good chunk of guys who have been here for a while. I want to see them build up to a championship, and at least stay close after it
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    Milos --

    there is NOTHING worse for a baseball fan than the anticipation of April closing to nothing in June. nothing. the season becomes meaningless...and it's a very long season. nothing is worse than that. i'll take a playoff disappointment every single year over being a laughingstock franchise that can't make the playoffs.

    am i disappointed when they lose in the playoffs?? absolutely. maybe more so than any of the rest of you. but i'm not going to pretend they didn't put a good team together when they win in excess of 90 games and then can't win 4 out of 7 against the team that goes on to represent the league in the World Series.

    just curious, Milos...how old are you? not trying to pull the old, "i'm older than you so i know more." but i have friends younger than me who can't remember the Astros as one of those laughingstock franchises. they can't remember year after year of not sniffing the playoffs. they can't remember the team going into receivership. they dont' know who john mcmullen is. those were awful seasons with very little excitement. there was NO buzz at all about the 'stros. none. as a fan, that's like being dead. there was nothing to root for by early-July. that is FAR worse. again...baseball is a regular season sport.
     
  16. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Here's what gets me to be honest. These people who assume spending all this money would lead to a championship seem to ignore the fact that in baseball money doesn't equate to success. Now if you use your resources wisely and get a really good 25 man roster, that's one thing, but spending like say Baltimore is doing right now(Sammy Sosa) is beyond idiotic.

    There is no guarantee of success with how much you spend on payroll in baseball, it only increases the odds of success if you spend wisely. But there is a guarantee of losing money if you were to do what these fans suggest, and guess what that leads to. That's right, a firesale, a la the 97 Marlins, or debt, like 2001 DBacks.

    Btw, I'm not old by any stretch(21 years old), but I wouldn't trade one championship for decades of suffering like they get in Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, etc. And the thing is, how much you spend doesn't directly correlate into a championship, there are many more factors that go into it. But the one thing that is guaranteed is if the spending starts bringing down the bottom line, the fans are the ones hurt the most, as an owner will cut payroll to make ends meet financially.

    I have mini season tickets with my family again this year, and I'm looking forward to the start of the season. The Astros have far more talent than many on this board give them credit for, and they have a front office that is one of the best in baseball. Will they make the playoffs, who knows. But will they be very competitive, yes, they will.
     
  17. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    Max,

    The way it seems to me when everything is broken down to its root form, is that "we" are unsatisfied, as the Astros could, and should, do more to reach the ultimate prize, while you guys on the other hand, take solace in knowing the Astros are competitive enough to avoid being one of the worst teams in the league.
     
  18. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    Spending money doesn't lead to a championship? In today's baseball, it does about 80 percent of the time. And the Orioles only ended up paying Sammy about 9.5 million in a one year deal.
     
  19. Dennis2112

    Dennis2112 Contributing Member

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    If that % were true then why haven't the Yanks won since 2001?

    2 out of the last 3 WS champs had lower payroll than the Astros.
     
  20. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    Those teams were anomalies. And while the Yankees haven't won in the last four years, they've been right on the doorstep, losing twice in the ALCS and twice in the World Series. And are you trying refute the fact that money doesn't better a team's success rate in baseball?
     

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