Try two years from now. Ward's got at least 2 guaranteed years, with the third being the option. Just a terrible signing, especially if Damon Jones really had any interest in Houston.
Daddy, Solid, well-reasoned and grounded posts. (If I could, I'd rate this thread a 6 so no one misses it) What's your take on JVG's ability or inability to get the offense rolling?
thats great!! thats what we want. to weed out the players looking for personal gain, and find the ones that cant live without winning. if you win, the RIGHT players will attract to houston because they know they have a chance at winning. the ones not willing to sacrifice to be called "champion" can go to dallas. they may have to work hard, they may have to put up with a perfectionist coach, but the ones that care about winning, and not joining a fraternity will see our dedication to winning and want to be apart of it. who wants another scottie pippen??
this is what i use to look at salaries. according to this its only one guaranteed. dont know how accurate it is, but i think it is. http://www.**************/salaries/houston.htm from what i understand jones wanted to play with shaq, and was looking for more money than we were offering. im not sure, but some get away. maybe we will find something better.
thanks. i think it is rolling now. i hated jeff and his slow down mechanical offense earlier this year, but we upped the tempo, we at least try to fast break, tmac is being able to do the things that made him tmac, and we still get tons of open looks. as long as those things happen, then it is dependant on the players to execute.
Four hours and still none of the hundreds of JVG haters in here have really flamed this thread. That's a testament to the quality of the argument. I bet a lot of them are holding their fire till the Jazz game, hoping a loss will give them more ammo. Not me. I thought the Wesley trade was dumb, but I hope to eat crow about it tomorrow and for the rest of the season.
Next year he has a 2 million dollar team option. I agree Will. I would really like to be wrong about that trade.
Mechanical was the term I used also. I theorized that what made JVG so effective as a good Defense coach was hampering him at the other end. The offense totally lacked flow. I don't recall being too impressed with his Knicks offense either. I wonder how much TMac's end-of-game performances have caused JVG to alter his approach to the offense.
Me too. I like what Wesley showed so far, and if he has a little junkyard dog in him as Daddy thinks ... then I'd be quite satisfied. Still feel bad about losing JJ though (but I still feel bad about losing Sam too).
I don't think that's accurate. I remember articles from both Peter Vescey and Chad Ford stating that Ward got 2 years and an option for 3. Now I know that Vescey and Ford are just about universally distrusted on this board, but that has more to do with their trade speculation. I doubt both of them would mess on reporting contract terms. Also, Patricia Bender's site lists down Ward with a three year deal for $5.6 million. She doesn't have the team option listed either, but I'm sure it's there. And finally, when Charlie Ward was signed, he said that he was looking forward to playing out the three years and then maybe retiring. So I think it's likely that he does have a three year deal with the third one being non-guaranteed.
well, it may be 3 years, but at a very miniscule price. we can still sign players for the vet minimum even if we released him. it shouldnt stop us from improving the team. but i dont think charlie ward is done. i think he can still contribute. he is a good 3pt shooter, and he cant be that bad for < 20 minutes a game. either way, whatever jeff has done, it has made a difference, because we have averaged almost 100 points in the last 2 weeks. i think he is a good defensive coach although his defense is misleading because of pace. but just like a good offensive coach cant have a good offense without good scorers, a good defensive coach cant have a good defense without good defenders. we have some really weak links in our defense right now, but the important part is that his foundation is built around defense and he coaches that philosiphy.
The flaw in this all, Carroll, errrr, Daddy, is that I doubt and I think many others doubt the ability of this management to draft and develop anyone whether it is a lottery pick or a later 1st round. Excuse me if I get his name wrong its been a while but I think much of the success of the Rockets was due to Steve Patterson, the old GM. I think that CD has lived off of that legacy and has never really proven his own abilities to successfully draft & develop. And while trading or signing role players will plug the dike somewhat, the ultimate success of Tmac & Yao will be vastly improved by successfully drafting & developing some very good to great talent. So hoping for the best but.....
well richi, i ask again, who are these draft picks, and who are you associating with cd, and who are you associating with jvg?? cd is repsponsible for cat, kenny thomas, dickerson, yao and nachbar. we havent had a 1st rounder since 02. like i said before, when you dont have your core or identity, you draft in hopes of aquiring that special talent instead of specific needs. not an easy accomplishment, but we found one. we also aquired steve francis in the draft, and eddie griffin who looks to be coming about nicely. i hate that we let him go, but he did dig his hole. if you want to look at player aquisition, look at barkley, drexler, pippen, francis and tmac. all 5 may end up in the hall one day, and some teams go forever without even aquiring one of those caliber talents. although we didnt win a championship, it was what the fans wanted and it led to some fun years in houston. if you want to look at other non hall of fame players read some of my other posts in this thread that explain why things like that happen. and if you have to, look around the league at how hard it is for a franchise to ressurect itself after the retirement of a franchise player, and some that never become contenders. bulls, gs, clips, den, utah, ny, nj, memphis cleveland etc... some are just now starting to rise after taking a decade or more to find that special player, and some have no relief in sight. its a try once, start over and try again type process. this is year 1 with our core that teams struggle so desperately that they would trade half their team to aquire and spend years trying to make up for the damage of what a guy like the 2 we have would cost. thats just what we did. we made some crazy moves to find those players because we werent satisfied with finishing last and drafting #1 every year in hopes that a lebron james or a tim duncan would pop up. if you want to look at van gundy, who has his draft picks and young talent been?? nachbar?? gaines, barrett?? are these the guys that you want developed?? i know the thought of a rookie becoming the next great player is exciting, but it wont be with those guys. jeff isnt going to stick a guy in there just so he can get used to playing. this is about winning. if they can come in and contribute to winning, he wouldnt have a job if he just ignored them.
It's not like all of our drafts have been horrible. We've had some good drafts. Horry over Harold Minor in '92 comes to mind. Sam Cassell with the 24th pick in '93. Othella was a decent pickup in the second round, I've always thought he was an underrated player. Rodrick Rhodes didn't pan out, but there weren't any good players available then. I still think Michael Dickerson was a great choice in 1998. Bryce Drew over Rashard was bad, but getting Cat makes up for that, IMO. Kenny Thomas over Kirilenko hurt, but Kenny was a solid pickup. The only monumentally bad draft choices under CD, IMHO, were Collier and Langhi in 2000, and Boki in 2002 (Though Tayshaun was the only other player available - with Eddie, Taylor, and KT, we weren't about to draft Boozer). Drafting EG was a good idea that didn't pan out because Eddie went crazy. CD really couldn't have predicted that, IMO. CD's done as good a job as just about any other GM when it comes to drafting talented players.
I agree with you. I don't see how the trades really help us but I can see on the floor that Wesley brings a defensive intensity that has been lacking since last year. I'm still not convinced that JVG knows what he's doing. After all, we haven't really beaten anybody yet, we've just won a couple games that we should have expected to win even before the trades were made whereas we have been losing half the games we were expected to win. But as far as beating the seeded teams ahead of us, I think that is a different story. Before this season started, I was convinced we were headed for 50+ wins and a top 4 seeding. Now it looks like we are gonna have to settle for trying to match last year's record and seeding. If indeed TMac complained about JJ's shots taking away from his game, and they (JVG and CD) moved JJ because of it, then that is an eye opener for me. It lets me know that JVG is really willing to build around TMac and understands that he has to have the input of his superstar players. But I don't think anybody can verify that story. I'd like to think it is true though. If I find out it is true, I will change my opinion about Van Gundy. I don't hate Van Gundy. I've just lost confidence that he knows what he is doing on the offensive side of the floor and I've lost confidence that he knows how to handle players, their egos, and their different personalities. It will take more than a couple W's over poor to mediocre teams to make me feel differently about Van Gundy at this point.
i thought this might be interesting. san antonio spurs since 97, 3 names stand out. duncan, ginobili and parker. how about detroit pistons since 97, i see bonzi, and prince. or la lakers who?? or sac kings maybe gerald wallace?? or indiana pacers ??? the fact is that if you look at those lists of teams that we are trying to reach their level, you will find name after name that are nobodies if youve even heard of them. i think carroll dawsons legacy might be that he has aquired TMAC AND YAO. how can we take this for granted?? two franchise players on the same team. two players of unmatched talent. young and un-ego ridden like the one in la. clyde drexler, charles barkley, scottie pippen, steve francis, yao ming and tracy mcgrady. find me another gm with that on his resume. and you all are worried about hit or miss draft picks that show marginal nba talent?? maybe carroll should have done what the rest of the league told him and drafted jay williams.
daddy....... dont have much to chime in about that hasnt already been covered...but I had to make this post to compliment you on your levelheadedness and quality discussion skills... I cant imagine you could have been happy over at the espn boards tryin to get decent discussions going.....kinda like pissing in the wind as it were... but anyway....gotta say...Im glad you are here, and keep up the good work...it has been a pleasure to read your thread(for the most part)
I agree with D. After all said and done, CD did assemble two of the brightest young superstars in the league in Yao and TMac. In this league, it is always much harder to find franchise players than finding role players. The last time anyone did that was Jerry West with Shaq and Kobe in 1996. That's in pretty good company.
