Sorry, but Shawn Kemp was a more freakish athlete than Griffin. Both are very elite athletes, but Kemp got down the floor far faster and was quicker.
Clearly better than Dirk 1. Tim Duncan 2. Karl Malone 3. Kevin Garnett 4. Elvin Hayes * All these players played both sides of the court. Same class as Dirk 1. Charles Barkley 2. Dolph Shayes 3. Kevin McHale
I see the argument for Barkley, but my reservation is that he didn't really have the commitment to put him over the hump, where Dirk did. I might still go Barkley though. I'll just add my voice to the chorus. Barkley was a freak of nature. Wide with a low center of gravity and strong as a bull matched with good agility, good instincts and pretty respectable foot speed, range and so on. He didn't prosper despite his natural talents, he prospered because of them.
I feel like they were two completely different players. Barkley was undersized and was a great post up player and elite rebounder. Dirk is taller than the average PF, but for the first 10 years of his career was an outside shooter. Neither played much defense at all, Barkley was considered tough, while Dirk is/was soft as they come. I'd have to go with Barkley overall, I think he would trash all these defenders in the new era of less physical play and no hand checking. Put Dirk in the late 80s/ early 90s and he would get abused every night by physical play and possibly have the same fate of a lot of other Euro players during that era (fled back to Europe)
You have to account for the era Dirk is playing in... soft-ass "flopping" with contact calls every single possession on the perimeter. Dirk gets foul calls like a guard does. That shouldn't happen when you're 7-foot with little to no low-post game. He wouldn't have thrived as much in the 80's-90's unless he had an all-around game like Bird did. He would have been a better Detlef Schrmepf... an all-star...but not an MVP. On the flip-side, a prime Barkley would murder the NBA today. If he was getting 10-12 free throws back then, he'd have more Harden/Durant free throw numbers in today's game (not to mention his elite rebounding, and ability to make his teammates better).
Just remember, they had to change the rules because Barkley could literally control the game by just hanging out on the block. It wasn't exactly an exciting style of play but I'm hard pressed to think of a more effective play to guarantee a high percentage shot. It almost always resulted in an up and under layup or a wide open 3 if the defense collapsed on him. Dirk's one footed fader is nice but not nearly as consistent. Dirk has the better career but Barkley was the better player in his prime.
Young Barkley was a force of nature at power forward. He carried trash into the playoffs. He was giving you 25 points, twelve rebounds, and 4 assists every game. (Think Garnett pre-Celtics.) By the time Barkley had decent teammates, he was into his thirties in a time when primes were shorter. He STILL went to the finals with Kevin Unclutch Johnson as his best teammate. He was a 20-10 machine, a creator (averaged 5 assists per game in his best years), and generally destroyed the power forwards of his era, not excepting Karl Malone. The end of his career with the Rockets wasn't what I wish it had been, and Dirk is amazing... but I'm taking the Round Mound of Rebound.
You could argue it either way. Saying either was far superior is just ridiculous hyperbole. Elvin Hayes as clearly better than Dirk is a joke IMO.
We will have to agree to disagree.... Hayes could guard PF's and C. He was one of the best rebounders of all time, he could block shots. He also went to the line a great deal and could play 45 minutes a night when needed.
I have a mixed answer: Barkley for peak performance and Nowitzki for overall career. Barkley at his peak, I believe, would have destroyed Dirk at his peak if they were playing one another, just based on strength, quickness and nastiness. But if I could draft one of them now, knowing I would get one or the other entire career, I'm definitely taking Nowitzki. Nick makes some great points in trying to compare eras.
Hayes was also a dick. He played huge minutes which resulted in big numbers. Impact didn't really match the numbers. He only shot about 45% as a big man which is pretty mediocre. Kind of a black hole on offense. Didn't really make his teammates better the way Dirk does.
You mention Schayes, but no Bob Pettit or Jerry Lucas...I see Hayes, Garnett, Barkley, and McHale mentioned, but no Chris Webber.
I just named the players that popped into my head. Lucas and Pettit are certainly worthy of consideration, and would argue Pettit was probably better than Nowitzki. Chris Webber was a very gifted player and a Hall of Fame worthy player. I don't have an issue with him being included in the list. Regardless, the claim of Carlisle that Dirk is a top 10 all time player is silly.
I agree, but he has had a remarkable career. He has also gotten the better of KG, Duncan, Kobe and the Heat trio in the postseason.
