Barkley: Camby Should Be Starting All-Star Center Over Yao

Once again you would need to prove that they can get up the court first to get their shots. Wallace is a great player. There is no doubt about it. But he doesn't have the pace. His probably as quick as Yao maybe a little bit quicker. The Phoneix philosophy is to score within 7-8 seconds of the other team getting a bucket. Realistically only mobile big men like Amare and Marion and Diaw can take it. Case in point Kurt Thomas and Brian Skinner. Too defensive big men. Did relatively little or nothing offensively but have big defensive implications for Phoneix. Kurt Thomas can score, his averaging what 12 pts this season. But his offensive skills cannot be utilised in a run and gun offence cause his just not up the floor quick enough. Camby isn't exactly fleet of foot either.

 

Weakko did you hear? Did you hear? The Warriors went out and signed a player who is slower than Yao to their high speed offense.........hmmm.....kinda makes you go..hmmmmm dont it?

 

How do you know he's slower than yao? his knees have had a long time to rest...

But before we make a decision, dont you have to see how he performs first?

 

You do realize that you're talking about Ben Wallace in his prime? Give it up...theres no way you can convince anyone here that Ben Wallace in his prime wasnt a monster.

For you to imply that he's not as quick as yao (who isnt that quick)....

I really dont know what to tell you.

Camby may not be fleet of foot, but he's MUCH faster than Kurt Thomas.

 

Rest is not something that can help his ankle injury and old age.

 

We know that Don Nelson is into small-ball and that he exploits mismatches.

I'm sure theres some method behind his madness.

If his ankle injury is really that bad, he wouldnt be playing.

 

It's bad enough to the point where his defense is non existent.

 

His overall game must be good enough that he can make an NBA roster...

 

He can hit the 45 degree angle jumper pretty good.

 

do you even read what other people write?
I said I don't think he would fit into the system. He was a defensive monster in his prime, but for a run and gun offence? I would say Chicago plays with a pretty good pace because their team consist of mainly jumpshooters. His struggling there as it is. None of your prototype forwards are anywhere close to the speed of the quick forwards those system use. Look who the Grizzlies shipped out cause he wasn't really fitting into their system either. If you want to convince anyone that Wallace will fit into the Phoneix offence then you got to be kidding yourself. Look at the type of forwards they want to trade for. Kirilenko, Joakim Noah. All have length, speed, hustle and a jump shot. They aren't as one dimensional as Wallace.

Camby is a different story but i still reserve my doubts. He probably could fit in a Phoneix system. Denver is more of a hybrid offence. His touches at the moment definetly don't consist of any post ups what so ever.

 

it was also good enough for the Pistons to not sign him again

 

To be effective in the run and gun offense, you have to run the floor well. Like I said, in his prime, he was a beast. You couldnt find a better athlete.

When you referred to him earlier, you were talking about him in his prime. Everyone knows he's garbage now.

Dont you think those GMs choose the players that best fit their systems? Whose your definition of a prototype forward?

No team ships out its franchise player b/c he doesnt fit in their system. Instead, they modify their system to accomodate their star. But for whatever reason, the grizzlies decided to rebuild. They traded him b/c they wanted to rebuild, not because he didnt fit into their system.

On a side note, assuming your argument is true, how does Kwame Brown fit into their system?

Please specify which wallace you're referring to. In your previous post, you referred to Big Ben when he was on the pistons and earlier, you referred to him when he was on the bulls.

Big Ben in his prime could fit in any system.

You dont think that Ben Wallace's monster salary is another reason why teams dont want him?

And since when does phoenix run post ups?

 

Let us go through your wording again. Beast and Athlete are totally different things. Neither do they suggust he is fleet of foot nor whether or not he could acutally sustain a fast paced style offence. The only offence he ever played in was the Pistons one, and guess what he had a diminished role on the pistons because of his offence (sitting in the 4th quater, complaining about lack of shot attempts etc......) Just because you think his a beast doesn't mean he will fit straight into a run and gun offence. Your logic is shocking.

I only refer to Chicago because its the only fast paced offence that he was part of in his career. Pistons Championship team 2004 was a clear isolation half court offence. He suffered a huge offensive drop off when Flip Saunders was brought in. This was still in his prime. Please demonstrate to me otherwise. You have absolutly no evidence that he can work within a fast paced system other then "Ben Wallace is a BEAST in his Prime"

I don't think Phoneix would pick the same offence if they drafted say Tim Duncan or Al Jefferson. These are prototype back to basket forwards. Amare is definetly not one of them.

Why did the Grizzlies rebuild? They brought in Ivaroni to implement a Phoneix style offence. High expectations based on the signing of Darko as well. But its clear that Gasol does not fit into the system. Hence they traded him to rebuild. Oh and they are losing money by the millions. Obviously you must be missing something here. Teams don't accomodate systems to their stars. Case Study: Toronto Raptors were built around a system and culture and anyone that didn't fit (*cough* Mike James Rafer Alston *cough*) were shipped out. Its been listed in multiple analysis that the Grizzlies weren't winning, because their $20 million player does not fit into their system. So what you keep him? He was traded for Kwame Brown because Kwame with Aaron Mckie is easily the largest expiring contract in the market that they could take on without giving up any other roster players. Oh and they picked up Jarvis Criterreon who they were interested in. In short Gasol getting shipped out and the Grizzlies rebuilding around Gay has the same reason, he didn't fit in the new system they were putting in and he was taking up cash. Kwame is cash to them expiring contract, not a player. He will still play, but see how much they resign him for next season and you'll answer your own question.

Noone wants Wallace with his contract AND his playing. Im sure if he was in 2004 form people would still want him in his current contract guise. But strictly half court teams with a established low post presence. Wallace will fit into any system in his prime is a statement that is not backed by anything other then your opinion. He has never shown any evidence of fitting into any system other then the half court in his days as a Pistons. Feel free to point out otherwise.

Camby is getting his points of put backs, offensive rebounds and other assorted small plays. He rarely gets a play called for him, he doesn't even warrant a post up play against Eddy Curry. To suggust that he would be great in the Phoneix system is just an assumption. Im not saying he won't be but i have reservations.

 

Very well, if you're going to get so hung up on semantics (since you're from Australia, I guess you're not accustomed to American slang). In his prime, Ben Wallace was an incredible athlete remniscent of Dennis Rodman. I have no doubt that he could easily keep up with any run and gun system.

Currently, he is only a shell of his former self.

For Ben Wallace, a "huge" offensive drop isnt that significant. He was never known for his offense.

Watch footage of his piston days. Watch how he hustled. Watch how fast he came down the court. Watch how much ground he covered on defense. Watch how he dominated the rebounds.

This is exactly my point. You get your franchise player and then build around him. Amare suits Nash perfectly.

And out of curiosity, aside from ther "pf/c" designation, is there any real difference in the play of Yao and Duncan? You can make the argument that Duncan really plays center. Remember how he was originally listed as a center on the all-star ballot?

I think we have a misunderstanding here. My contention is that you build your team around your franchise player. Their old system was designed around Gasol. He was their system. And since they didnt get acceptable results, they're scrapping the whole thing and starting over.

Who were the stars on those teams? Who was worthy enough to build a team around?

How do you think teams choose their systems? You think they know what style they want to play and then get players to fulfill that style? Sorry man, franchise players dont come around that often.

Teams with franchise players DO accomodate systems to their stars.

Yes, but if he were playing for 1 million a year, I'm sure a lot of teams would want him even though he's playing poorly right now.

Doubtful. Even the pistons didnt want to keep him at that price, and they knew firsthand what he brought to the team.

You know what? Opinion is all there is. Theres not a single shred of proof. Do you know why? Its b/c he didnt play for every single team in his prime.

Its all speculation. But look at what we do know about him. He was a great athlete. He was a team player. He hustled. He was an incredible team defender. He rebounded. He provided the intangibles that championship teams need.

Now how many teams out there wouldnt want a player like that?

He's also getting points off jumpers. I havent seen many denver games this year, but i've seen a few. And his offense is not limited to just put-backs and small plays.

Yeah, you're right. He doesnt warrant a post up play against Eddy Curry. But you know what? Neither does Allen Iverson. Do you know why? B/c they arent post up players.

Does that mean Iverson is bad at offense? No it doesnt. It just means he's not a post up player.

Of course its an assumption...b/c he's not on the phoenix team. You're entitled to your reservations. I've heard them all, and in my opinion, i've answered them all.

 

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ROUND 1 FIGHT



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You obviously like to concentrate on particular facts don't you. Rodman and Wallace are indeed similar. Rodman never played in a run and gun style either if I noticed. What makes you think he can fit into a Phoneix offence. You still haven't pointed out anything other then his athlete, he hustles, all known facts we know already. How much playing time are we looking at, what role, starting? Look at the top 7 players in the Phoneix lineup. Not one of them can't go off for 20 points on a given day. Ben Wallace would thank his lucky stars if he got a game over 15 points. If Wallace moves to Phoneix would he start? Would he be a reserve off the bench? I think he would be reduced a role where he comes on based on match ups even. He got benched int he 4th quater in a Pistons "fast paced"offence for crying out loud. And you think he'll be a perfect player for a the Suns. Good job. You obviously have given no thought about what role he'll play offensively, the minutes, and what compensation the rest of the suns players have to make. Nearly all the players can make jump shots in that system. B. Wallace? questionable. You don't answer even hypothetically how he can fit in the system. B. Wallace in Detroit was perfect because there were others to make up for his short comings. And the pace of the offence suited his game. I fail to see how Wallace could possibly fit. There probably is an argument for him to fit. All the players the Suns play can score. You can't even point out who he would currently replace to make the system to work. Grant Hill? having a career year sorry m8, Raja Bell? whos going to space the floor with the threes? Marion? um i believe he already does all the intangibles that Wallace does AND play inside out, which leaves Nash and Amare. Good luck lets drop them for Ben Wallace.

Um and with the Gasol thing, I believe the main questions aroudn him, and still are around him, are if he could actually be a franchise player. His paid like one for sure. But is he a capable franchise player? Marbury is paid like one too. But his not even 1st string in New York. Lets not mention some people around here questioning mr Mcgrady.

And players Toronto had to build around? Do you watch the NBA? Chris Bosh? hello? never heard of him?

Oh and by the way, the Pistons offerred the same amount of money. But a year short. IT wasn't the amount of money the Pistons were scared of. It was the years on the contract, at the end of the contract Big Ben would have been useless but still getting paid 20 million. At least do the research before babbling on about how noone was willing to pay the price of the contract.

 

If I recall correctly, the 80's pistons were a pretty fast paced team.

Thats exactly why I think he can fit into a phoenix offense (if we're basing his skills on his prime).

Well, his playing time really wouldnt matter. Its whether or not he would thrive in the system. And he's scored over 15 points before. And in the Sun's system, you get layups/dunks as long as you hustle.

If I were the phoenix coach, i'd give him brian skinner's minutes. And I would give him more minutes if the suns had to face an elite pf/c.

Pistons didnt have a fast paced offense. If he was benched, it was b/c of the liability he presented at the free throw line.

Actually, it looks like you didnt... Seriously man, how old are you? Do you even remember Wallace in his prime?

Its not too hard to get transition dunks in the phoenix suns system as long as you hustle.

I'd give Skinner's minutes to him.

His only shortcoming in detroit was on offense and that was highlighted b/c they played a half-court style. In an up-tempo game, the inability to make a jumper gets somewhat hidden.

I'm not even going to try to convince you how his defense would fit. I'm making the assumption you're not arguing that.

Brian Skinner. Please dont say I cant point out something if you never asked the question.

a 7 ft center who shoots 50% of the field and averages 19 ppg? Yeah, I'd say thats a franchise player.

Marbury was never a franchise player. McGrady was at one time...not anymore.

When rafer was originally with toronto, bosh wasnt on the team.

And mike james had a great year and then signed with minnesota for a lot of money. Its not like toronto traded him away (as you implied).

Wallace signed with the bulls for 4 years for 60 million.

The pistons offered a 4-year 48 million contract.

This was clearly about the money.

I never said no one was. The bulls did.

You should at least learn to read before you tell other people not to babble. Man, this isnt even an argument anymore. Every point you bring up gets shot down.

Before you post, you should do some research (read articles, look at stats, look at rosters, look at contract info (if you're going to reference them)) and make sure the info you're giving is accurate.

 

We've had a pretty lengthy discussion, and you've made very few valid points (i'm assuming you did...cant think of one off the top of my head).

You've referenced false information and your opinions show faulty logic. Overall, you seem ignorant about the NBA outside of the rockets.

In my last post, I again refuted all your contentions. You can reply to it if you want, but dont expect me to respond. I've been responding to the other guys b/c they're obviously knowledgeable about the NBA, and its always nice to have a good debate.

But my last response to you took 20 min to write. Its a waste of time answering you. You could've easily answered your own questions by doing a little bit of research.

 

WEAKko.How about the Suns picking up a slow Center!!!!!! Check this out, the GMs are proving your stupid little theory away on their own!!