That's the whole argument!! Charles wants to always be, "The Man", and won't sacrifice for the team. He wants to win but would rather carry the team himself, and make the game winning 3-pointer. That's the whole argument right there, FinalFantasy, and you helped our cause out. All of you keep bringing up Charles's stats, and saying how great he is. Nobody ever attacked that. What we, atleast I, am saying is that while Charles has put up the stats, and had good numbers, he has never been a team player, and his ego has hurt the team. His hypocritical statements don't help his cause either. Nobody is questioning his ability. It is his concept of team ball, his lack of commitment, and his hypocrisy that I have come to hate.
Dirt, I am not talking about the numbers. I agree Barkley puts up good numbers, but so do a lot of players. What I've been saying is that he makes very poor decisions at very inopportune times. His 3-pter came late in the 4th quarter, when is wasn't a necessity. I don't mind Barkley shooting the occasional three when we're ahead by 20 or down by 20, or when time is running out on the shot clock or the game clock. But, when he shoots those dumb shots like that and people call him a smart player, it makes it hard for me to see the connection. His TO also came in late in the 4th quarter. It was a bad pass. He had another bad pass in the 4th, but I can't remember exactly how it happened. He is a 15 year veteran who should know how to protect the ball better than that, in crunch time. FT shooting: again, many of his misses came late in the game. Just poor timing for a miss. Hakeem has never been the world's greatest FT shooter, but I bet in the last 10 years of his career, his FT numbers are pretty damn good in the 4th quarter. Some people will argue that a FT miss, or a 3-pter, or a TO in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd quarter is the same as one in the 4th. Well, it is not. When you make a mistake late in a game, especially a close one, you don't have as much time to make up for it, or to come back. If you go 0 - 10 shooting in the first half, but then score 15 points in the 4th to help your team come back and win, then you may have not had a good "game", but you showed up for crunch time, when it counts the most. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
Cabbage "All of you keep bringing up Charles's stats, and saying how great he is. Nobody ever attacked that." Barzilla's ." Charles on the other hand was once labeled "Worst Defender in the NBA". seems like an attack to me. "he has never been a team player, and his ego has hurt the team." Willingness to come off the bench and play for the minimum should count towards being a team player. Did Jordan ever take a cut in pay for Pippen? Was it Jordan's ego that drove him to try baseball? Didn't it hurt the Bulls?
I love Charles because I always know hes doing whatever he can. Barkley just keeps it real on the court...he takes no crap and you can definitely see his emotions on the court. He gets so much done out there at 6' 4" on effort and attitude alone. Charles is the heart of the Rockets and that fat b*stard is doing his best to try to make this last season respectable. I have to respect a man that can go into every arena and have the crowd chant Barkley sucks. It will be sad day when our season is over and he is gone.
I think the question about why Barkley always tries to be 'the man' may be a little questionable. Especially as evidenced by how well he has fit into the Rockets' recent style of play. Barkley *does* work better with the running game, and he has been doing it by cleaning the boards and kicking it out, passing that extra pass, running with the guys. Barkley's been putting up big numbers...but its been a team effort, on all points. Other than that...as to *why* Barkley probably feels like he has to take over...well, most times he can. Even now, in the twilight of his career, I've seen Charles take over games in the fourth by sheer force. A guy that supposedly '6-6', pounding the glass, big forwards, racking up fouls on the other team, hitting big shots: this is all stuff he's been doing all his career. He's been an NBA superstar. It's what they do.
Dreamer, So if I understand what you're saying,if Hakeem misses 2 FT's in the 1st quarter,Barkley misses 2 in the 4th quarter,and the Rockets lose by 1,it's Barkleys fault? I know 4th quarter stuff is always magnified,but the net result is still the same,minus 2 points. As to the TO's,if you handle the ball alot you're gonna have TO's. I think Barkley handles the ball pretty darn good the majority of the time. He will make a stupid pass on occassion though,and sometimes,you just gotta give the other team credit for making a good play. In conclusion,why don't you want to go by the numbers? You know what they say about people living in glass houses....
Dirt, You are not getting my point. If Charles misses some 1st half FTs, but makes all his 4th quarter FTs, and Hakeem misses two down the stretch, then YES Hakeem's misses hurt us more. Did you not read where I talked about WHY late mistakes hurt more than earlier ones? ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
So Dreamer what do you want me to say the next time Hakeem missed crunch time free throws? The whole team is missing crunch free throws for god's sake.
1. I want you to say that Hakeem shouldn't have missed those two important FTs. 2. But, the whole team isn't made up of 15 year veterans, who won't practice what they preach. There is an exception to my 4th quarter rule. If you've scored 45 points and hit 12 of 14 FTs, but missed one to tie the game, then I'll still say you had a good game. But, you still missed the FT to tie the game. But, if you're scoring 15 points, and shooting 4 of 10 from the line, and you miss crucial FTs, and you have crucial TOs, and you take dumb 3pt shots late in the game, and you commit a very dumb rookie-type foul with 3.8 secs left, I'm gonna be less simpathetic. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
It doesn't matter Dreamer, the team is winning under Charles's guidance, and his so called dumb mistakes have reasons I explained above, if you don't want look at it, that's fine. No player is perfect, Hakeem's dunks have become a joke, he got blocked or the ball stolen every time he tried to dunk, and if I need to get harsh a center who can't dunk doesn't sound very nice. Or if we need to get further down Dream's game has his dumb side too, which I don't want to dig right now. The point is, every player makes mistakes, Under the context that a guy is 37 years old, played 88 minutes in two nights in a row, why can't people let go of some minor mistakes? Free throws were not good as he was tired. Besides, CB got 15 points but he is the core of the Rockets offense, every play the Rockets dumped it in for his being constantly doubleteammed which was invaluable. So his contribution can't be measured by points only, and the core of offense does have the luxury to shoot some 3s when he wants to. He made 1-3 which was not bad. Let's just let it go, the Rockets are winning and that's the most important thing. [This message has been edited by Finalfantasy (edited December 05, 1999).]
"The point is, every player makes mistakes, Under the context that a guy is 37 years old, played 88 minutes in two nights in a row, why can't people let go of some minor mistakes?" This coming from someone who calls Bryce Drew a dumb player for one foul. Who's the one not letting minor mistakes slide? Why can't you let a 2nd-year player who's only played spot minutes in about 50 games for his career make minor mistakes as well? "Let's just let it go, the Rockets are winning and that's the most important thing." Do as I say, not as I do, I guess? I'm not picking on you, FF, I just happen to pay special attention to those who rip my current favorite player, Bryce "Thrice" Drew.
First of all, I didn't call Drew dumb for only one foul, please read my post carefully first, second of all, Drew is not 37 years old and he didn't run a marathon like Charles. There is no comparison here. Thirdly, I don't think Charles' mistakes are dumb at all as Drew's. When you have a mental lapse because of fatigue, it's a mistake. When you do something impossible as if an ant trying to stop a pig that's dumb. Dr.ew is showing improvement but he is not thrice or anything like that. He desn't even have a nice all around game under his belt.
Well, Kenny Thomas is playing his third game and is already doing much better than Bryce "the deer in the headlight" Drew. Not bad for a 26th pick, not good for a 16th pick. Don't be aggravated by this, I just don't like people comparing Drew with John Stockton, or calling him a good back up point for one decent game, and I certainly don't see the smartness people claims to be in him. I took him off my scrub list and if he gets better I will give him more credit.
FF, Let me make a couple of statements about Drew before we go on. 1. Anyone who compares him with Stockton isn't getting enough Oxygen, but it is important to note that it did take Stockton several years to learn the point guard position. To me, I think the most accurate comparison would be Brent Price. He and Price are sneaky quick. They won't blow by you on every possession, but will make good penetration moves on occasion. Each also has a knack for coming up with the occasional steal. 2. I'm not sure if you are the one who compared him to Matt Maloney, but I think that is one of the worst comparisons anyone can make. I think there is a common misconception going around pro basketball that white=unathletic. In Maloney's case it is absolutely true, but not in Drew's. Drew has the ability to contribute if his shot is not falling. If Maloney can't hit his jumper you might as well play four on five. 3. I like anyone else can't lend a blind eye when someone makes mistakes. However, I also think it is unfair to talk about people getting overexcited about "one good game". I would classify both of his starts as good and that doesn't include the fact that he's strung four or five solid games in a row off the bench. Because of the strike shortened season, Drew still makes some rookie mistakes along the way. There are times when the game appears to be a little too fast for him. I think in a normal situation this would be tolerated, but since we have a rookie starting and making the same mistakes it appears that much more glaring. That being said, I am not for going out and getting a "veteran" point guard in a state of panic. If there is one out there who is a quality point guard who can be had for little or nothing then I'm for it. Unfortunately, solid point guards are hard to find, so if anyone is willing to part with a veteran there is probably a good reason for it. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
Boy I love how these Barkley bashing topics come up every couple of days. It always comes down to the same thing- Charles is a great player. He is undoubtedly one of the two best PFs of the 90's (along with K. Malone). I could almost understand the beginning of the year when the Rockets were playing bad to bash chuck for slowing down the offense. Now Dream is out, our O looks good, Chuck is busting his tail every night. He is the only one of our 3 stars who is playing during our winning streak. My point is simple, we are playing well, lay off chuck. I know all you Dream lovers blame Charles for not winning a few more titles but face facts Charles is still a good player. I honestly think alot of the Dream Lovers, Barkley Bashers would love to see Charles never hit another bucket, & never see the Rockets win again until Dream makes his return. Face facts the Rockets are proving that they can win with Barkley. What more can you ask out of him? I know I sound harsh about Dream fans, but I do feel a lot of hostility towards chuck, most from die-hard Dream fans.
One guy in a bar next to me said it well: "They'll be another Jordan, but there will never be another Barkley." What he meant was, we'll see the uniqueness of Jordan again before we see such a dominating 6'4" power forward again. Even with his shortness, the NBA was not going to deny this guy his place in the low post. I say he is indeed a superstar for setting precendence for what a tree stump can do in this league. Bravo Charles. Too bad you height always made you a defensive liability.
What I really find interesting is the camp thing again. If you criticize a player then you are in the anti camp and therefore you must be in this pro camp. I think what Charles Barkley represents more than anything else is the extreme of professional sports. This extreme is what turned a short, fat guy into a Hall of Fame player. On the other hand, this same extreme is probably what kept him from winning his championship. As a basketball fan in general I am more than willing to give Barkley his due. His on the court intensity and off the court levity is a big part of what makes watching basketball fun. However, I think the thing I am before anything else is a Houston Rocket fan. The thing I cherish the most are the championships we have won and the hope that we can win some more. This is why I choose to look at the negative when it comes to Barkley. If Barkley were playing for someone else I would probably enjoy him that much more, but because I know his excess will keep him from winning the championship that means the Rockets won't win the championship. That is what is most important to me. Being that this is the case I certainly can't put myself in a pro Dream camp. If Dream is going to play an integral part in getting us a championship then I am for him. If he is a hinderance than I am not pro Dream. However, I think there are a few mitigating factors that keep me from trashing the Dream. First and foremost, without Dream our first two titles would have been impossible. Since Chuck was never a part of that (at least in a Rocket uniform anyway) I owe no loyalty to him. Hakeem on the other hand deserves a bit of loyalty. Hakeem has also been one of the true gentlemen of the game during his years as a Rocket. Even he had won no titles, he carried himself as a true champion. Over the past several games I have seen Chuck take less shots and pick up his shorts and run. I admire him for doing that and honestly didn't think he had it in him. I also realize that a lot of what has happened can be directly related to Hakeem's injury. My sincere hope is that Hakeem will let his championship side take him over and realize the team needs for him to do different things when he comes back in order for us to win. However, I will always consider myself a part of the visionary faction. Before any other player or coach I am pro Rockets. I am anti no one unless they are keeping the Rockets from being what they can possibly be. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
We will not win a championship as CB is with us? Obviously the pros like Jackson and Sloan of the Supersonics, Jazz and Lakers don't think as you do Barzilla.
Barzilla- After thinking about your first post I thought of another superstar who many experts said was a one-sided player during his playing days. Larry Bird. Larry was regarded by his fans as being a good TEAM Defense player, which means he wasn't a great ono on one defender. He and Chuck also joked earlier in Chucks career about the 2 worst defensive players going one on one during the Sixer-Celtic games (I think it was more chuck joking). Let's also keep in mindthat the 90's were dominated by MJ. MJ was the 90's. Dream and the Rockets capitalized when MJ was gone for a year and a half. Dream was the second best player of the decade, but I believe Charles-Malone-Robinson-etc all fall in a class right below those 2. My point is - Charles is now a better fit for the Rockets than Dream, and many people can't handle that. I read your last post and I hope you are a Rocket fan more than a Dream fan, because it could be ugly when Dream returns, because in the best case scenario he will be getting less minutes (30 a game), unless there is an injury to Barkley-Cato. It will be tough on both Chuck & Dream to get reduced minutes towards the end of the season, and I'm not sure how either will react. Keep in mind that their will only be 96 minutes a game between the 3, and I think Cato has earned his 30 minutes a game.
4Chuckie, I am a Rocket fan first and foremost and I would be dishonest if I didn't say I am worried about what's going to happen when Hakeem returns. I think the best thing that can be said about this team is that it is deep. Unfortunately, when the playoffs come around we need to decide which eight or nine guys are going to give us the best chance to win. That poses a real problem when Tony Massenburg comes back as well. You can't punish him for being hurt, yet Carlos and Kenny Thomas have stepped up big time. FF, I think any Rocket fan has to admit to themselves that we really don't have what it takes to go all the way. Can we make a serious run? Sure, we could. I think the past half dozen games confirm that we are probably a playoff team, but "probably a playoff team" doesn't translate into title contender. I think that even if this team plays at this clip all season we are still looking at something like a 5 or 6 seed at best. Of course, we know that it can be done from the sixth seed, but the sixth seed is also an optimistic finish. ------------------ Rockets When? Rockets When?
