Barack Hussein Obama is making Jimmy Carter look good...

Or, put a little differently...

"Why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"

 

Uh, exactly. (Didn't I just say this? )

It's an example of a white politician whose name is made fun of that has nothing to do with his race. So I've shown an example where a politician has his name made fun without regard to race that backs up my claim that there's a good chance that this is not based on race. I hope that's clearer.

 

I don't understand how that is really applicable when his name is Hussein. The people using it didn't pick the name. They would do the same thing if the name was Attila or Adolf or Dick or Van Der Sloot. It's not meant to be a deep thoughtful insult, but rather a very simple dig.

I'm aware that some have used the middle name for bigoted reasons, and acknowledge that it's a possibility here. But I see no evidence that that's the case when a perfectly plausible alternate explanation exists that I think is more likely given what we know about the OP and people like him. And in my opinion, you should have some pretty clear evidence and no alternate explanations before you act at all certain that somebody is being racist.

 

give us an apples to apples analogy. give us a republican/conservative with a race/religion related middlename which democrates/liberals purposely use to attack them.

if Barack's middle name is "Negro" is it okay for people to purposely use it to attack him?

 

The point is that no one is comparing Obama to Saddam Hussein. They aren't saying Barack Hussein Obama to connect him to Saddam, they are doing it to connect him to Islam.

How can you not see that?

 

If our President's middle name is so offensive then why doesn't he have it legally changed. My guess is that he has no problem with his name just like most people. A name is just a name. I find it funny that all the people who are getting worked up over the use of his middle name are Obama supporters.

 

As I said before, his middle name isn't offensive. It's offensive when others use it to make it appear as if Obama is something that he isn't.

Obama's even made jokes about it.

 

This response really doesn't make sense given my stance. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is. I'm not arguing anything about republicans versus democrats or conservatives versus liberals.

Again, I go back to this hypothetical. What if Obama's middle name was Adolf. People generally associate the name "Adolf" with Hitler the evil dictator who was white. Do you agree or disagree with the notion that if Obama's middle name was Adolf that there would be people who referred to him as Barack Adolf Obama as an attempt to smear him?

Assuming you agree (I don't see how you could disagree), then the question becomes, where is your evidence that this situation must not be the same?

By "okay" I assume you mean not racist/bigoted, because none of this conversation is about whether using Hussein is okay. But yes, if "negro" had an alternate meaning that had nothing to do with race and if like "Hussein" it wasn't potentially offensive on its own then sure, I would argue against people being certain that its use as an attack was racist.

Your argument is, "I am right, how can you not see that?"

I'm providing reasoning and evidence to explain my position. You just repeated your stance without addressing anything I've said. I acknowledged that some have referenced the middle name to link Obama to Islam (or at least to "otherness"). But I'm saying there are alternate explanations as well and there is no evidence here that the racist one is what is being intended.

 

Reasoning? But you are ignoring the data I provided that showed people don't connect Obama's name to the dictator Saddam Hussein. So that sinks that argument. You have presented any other reasoning to suggest that mentioning Hussein isn't about the fact that he is Islam.

What other rationale could it be. Clearly not to invoke the dictator Saddam, I've given the evidence there...so what is left of your argument?

 

It is not "clearly not to invoke the dictator Saddam". Just because people don't associate Obama with Saddam generally doesn't mean they aren't doing it for the purposes of a simple jab based on his name. As I said before, Hussein is his middle name, and the people taking the jab didn't pick it. They aren't trying to associate Obama with Saddam because it's a perfect match for the insult they're trying to make (as they might with Hitler, Stalin or Mao), they're doing it because that's his name and they have no other choice if that's his name.

As a counter example, if you search for "Cheney penis" and compare that to "Cheney penguin" you will notice that people don't regularly compare Cheney to a penis (please do not do this without SafeSearch on ). But yet they do make fun of his first name. Your logic is that if people don't regularly associate a person to something then they wouldn't do so if part of their name directly related to that something, but my Cheney example proves that logic doesn't hold.

But really, we're arguing the wrong way here. I acknowledge that people using Hussein do sometimes do it for bigoted reasons. So trying to show evidence that people do it for bigoted reasons is rather useless. The point I'm trying to emphasize is that there are other plausible explanations, and assume bigotry must be the root cause is more harmful to proper discourse than making silly thread titles that distract from the issue. I don't understand why you can't acknowledge that there are other plausible explanations. The one I've given seems obvious, and although I'm not entirely sure any more that it is the most likely explanation, it is absolutely plausible. I've got a couple more plausible scenarios not mentioned as well. Do you not agree that it is possible?

 

Hussein is his middle name, but this is no big deal. He didn't choose the name -- his parents did. I dislike my first name, so I understand how he might feel to be saddled with an unfortunate appellation. I dislike his policies, but this has nothing to do with any of his names.

 

how many percent the likelihood that saying Obama's middle name is an attempt to associate him to Muslims/Arabs compared to Saddam?

90% to 10%?

 

If I remember correctly......Hussein was used by certain media outlets after the ruckus started about his religion. When certain forms of media questioned whether he was Christian or Muslim......the name surfaced as a 'jab'. Certain media types even joked about it on their radio show......and large non-CNN, non-MSNBC, American news outlets.

 

http://hyerstandard.com/2008/02/28/karl-rove-warns-against-attacking-barack-obamas-name/

 

Earlier in the thread I would have said 25%-75% (with 75% being Saddam or "something not specifically bigoted").

After our conversation I'd say it's closer to 50-50. Are you sure it's 90-10? Are you comfortable with incorrectly calling someone a racist 10% of the time?

 

yeah if after even the GOP leadership and everyone has admitted that using Saddam's middlename is bigoted and denounce it for 2 years someone still says it while incorrectly attacking him and mentioning another president without the middlename and not being able to explain or defend himself afterwards

would you rather risk letting a 90% bigot get a pass?

 

There are three errors in the reasoning provided in this part of your post that are why I don't buy the 90-10 split. But if that's your reasoning then you're entitled to it.

Yes.

Of course, it's not a pass I'm letting them have. As I said in the very beginning, explaining how the use of the middle name could very well be bigoted is perfectly acceptable, and that in and of itself should be enough. The problem I had was when it went from a possibility being called out to a certainty being pronounced.

If 10% of our country's prisoners were actually innocent, I'd think something would need to be done to fix the judicial system. Being incorrectly labeled a racist on a message board isn't exactly equivalent to an innocent person being put in prison, but the same logic applies.

 

again, you're comparing apples to oranges

 

The same logic applies.

Comparing apples to oranges is fine if you're talking about getting fruit in your diet.