Not a great gauge. Anti Iraq war sentiment in the US is at an alltime high, yet the largest antiwar demonstrations were in 2005 and 2003 - the ones in 2007 have been comparatively minor. Just because people give up protesting something doesn't mean they're in favor of it.
My dad is from Hong Kong and he never liked the Brits. As a tangent in honor of my dad I wrote a song about the Opium Wars that my band does in addition to the anti-Brit Irish Rebel tunes.
I was born and raised in Hong Kong and I still have many relatives and friends over there. With all due respect and not to be rude, I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about.
Exactly. Not fulfilling the agreement with Hong Kong is a bad move by China re Taiwan. I visited Hong Kong when it was a Crown Colony, and it was fascinating, but have no problem with the UK having to give it up. It was time. Democracy, besides being something I support, is more importantly a promise made to the people of Hong Kong. China not keeping it's promises is everything here, not whatever influence Great Britain may retain with the population, or whatever fantasies exist in Britain about a role in Hong Kong beyond a trade and financial one. D&D. Replicant Beach Dreams.
the height of ignorance. The concensus among all the demographic groups in HK---boomers, genX, genY---to to evict the opium dealers.
How nice the pro-democracy propaganda sounds, when in reality it is simply a cover for the imperialist ambitions of the UK/US. Japan is probably involved in this too. Again, the UK/US don't want democracy, they want a pliant UK government who will give them favors. Basically, they want a satellite state on the Chinese border, and there is no way we can allow that, just like we prevented North Korea from being taken over. Democracy in HK is a huge sham. Besides, we never promised to give HK democracy. We promised to give them the status quo; in fact we've done better than that and their economy is now booming to never-before-seen levels. To the guy that said HK wants the UK back.... that is completely false. It's propaganda like this that spurs on support for the imperialist policies of the UK/US towards HK. If Taiwan is observing HK, then they will see that we have made HK rich by giving them free trade and other beneficial economic policies. Money rules the world, and if we keep the economy running, any "pro-democracy" i.e. pro-Western domination movement wanes. Nobody cares about democracy when they're rich, all they want to do is to keep making more and more money, and nowadays we're more than happy to let them do that.
Quit the imperialism crap, it gets really tiring after a while. These are democratic elections for LOCAL GOVERNMENT, they don't have any power over foreign relations or Hong Kong's ability to interact with the world. Also, this isn't the point. We're not demanding Hong Kong be given elections because of some sort of universal truth that we find to be applicable here. People demand it because democratic elections were promised to Hong Kong. Finally, give me one reason why democracy is bad. I still haven't heard one. I've heard a bunch of bad excuses for the Chinese dragging their feet. Democracy doesn't lead to some sort of imperial satellite state because if that were the case, the Iraqis would be our lapdogs. I think if the Iraq War taught us anything, its that democracy doesn't mean anything in terms of alliegance to Western Powers. The Hong Kong constitution has a section that specifically mandates the Chinese government introduce full universal suffrage for elections of the legislature and the executive. It never gives a timetable though but the Chinese are obligated to eventually introduce democracy. The question is when and many of pointed out that they should do it sooner rather than later. The Chinese are constitutionally bound to provide full elections at some point. I agree, it's not true. Free trade existed before the Chinese took over. In fact, before the Chinese took over, Hong Kong rated in the top 10 in terms of least government regulation on the economy according to several libertarian think tanks. In fact, in some surveys, Hong Kong declined on several lists after the Chinese took over but that's not really important. Hong Kong is still financially very strong. And finally, the money argument is entirely irrelevant. Tell me why China SHOULD NOT institute democracy and why democracy is bad and you may have a point. All your points just seem to be common excuses for the lack of democratic reform on the subject. Also, this doesn't answer the Taiwan question. Taiwan, unlike Hong Kong, has a strong democratic tradition and values democracy much more than Hong Kong. Hence, if reunification were to occur, the Taiwanese would need strong reassurance that those traditions would be maintained. I still havent heard any compelling reasons as to why not giving Hong Kong democracy would somehow be irrelevant to the Taiwan issue.
Taiwan was under one-party totalitarian rule just a little over 20 years ago. A lot of Taiwanese nowadays would call that an oppressive regime too. You don't seem to be very familiar with Asian history.
Yes, I'm well aware of the nationalists domination of Taiwanese politics. But over the last 20 years, multi-party elections have occured and it has become a staple for the Taiwanese electorate. Point being, they're becoming attached to their system.
A lot of people in Taiwan are beginning to become disillusioned from the massive corruption and incompetence among their politicians and top officials. Most are certainly concerned about economic security and the political ideology that will get them there.
since the late '90s ==>lots of Taiwanese $$$ are going overseas looking for safe haven; # 1 destination, by far, is the PRC by way of HK (so as to protect the investors' identities) ==>increasing # of Taiwanese retirees are relocating to the PRC, as the pension $$ stretch a long way in the mainland. ==>increasing # of Taiwanese business have started business ventures in China; many Taiwanese are working in the PRC a more recent development, Chinese businesses are making inroads in Taiwan.
Its true that there are many Taiwanese that are and Chen Tsui-Bien has bungled some golden opportunities to strengthen Taiwanese democracy. That said though most Taiwanese will not give up their democractic system. While Taiwanese recognize there is a lot of money to be made in the PRC that doesn't mean they are going to go along with a reunification without guarenteeing that their democractic political system is maintained. I think it would be a mistake to view massive Taiwanese investment in the PRC as being an indication that the Taiwanese will unify under terms heavily weighted in the PRC's favor.
it does indicate economic inter-dependency. The mainlanders and Taiwanese can be many things, stupid they're not. Pragmaticism will reign supreme, economics will run its course towards an eventual re-unification, probably in my life time.
^ High degree of economic interdependence maybe but probably most Taiwanese will never agree to a unification without some guarentee of maintaining there democracy. There are also many Taiwanese, like many of those who support the Chen's party, who wan't even come to the table without at least that guarentee.
While most Taiwanese prefer the ambiguous status quo, that status doesn't bode well for its markets when a guy like Chen sticks around. Taiwan's manufacturing industry is being hollowed out and offshored to China, and if Taiwan can't adjust on its own, there will be an increased divide among the rich and poor. It would be extremely foolish if the Taiwanese were to announce official independence in the name of democracy because Taiwan's future is dependent upon the Chinese. Taiwanese politicians who are aligned to Chinese interests would probably use that fact to bring closer steps towards talking and opening even more trade channels between the two sides. As money flows into Taiwan and stories of party corruption are downplayed, the people would be more willing to keep those politicians in power. I don't think the Taiwanese are willing to openly give up their free speech and press rights, but at this moment, Taiwan is facing a period of uncertainty over their identity and future. Under those circumstances many would choose a better path towards economic stability.
