Maybe I wasn't careful in my wording. I did not mean to imply "great" < "terrific", generally I would think the word great is more exclusive than terrific in ordinary langauge but that is besides the point. Basically what I was trying to say as they are both great offensive players and very comparable in production. It comes down to whether you want a great offensive player who is a good defensive 1B or a great offensive player who is a bad defensive catcher. I don't think this is as easy comparison as on the surface it seems. For instance pairing Bagwell with a run of the mill catcher (e.g., Ausmus) gives you better defense while pairing Piazza with a run of the mill 1B (e.g., Zeile, Karros) typically gives you better O. I have to admit though, working through all these posts I am leaning toward thinking of Bagwell as the better player.
Desert Scar: Ah!!!! Your quoting peripheral statistics to make the case for Piazza. RBIs and runs are irrelevant. They're more a function of the players around you and luck than anything else. Case in point is Bonds v Sosa this year: Bonds has been having the 2nd best offensive season of all time. Yet sammy, who's having an excellent but not phenomenal season, is producing more RBI's and runs. As for homers... well, why not just look at slugging %, isolated power, or Tavg if you want to compare power numbers? Emphasizing homers unfairly reduces the value of doubles, triples, etc. The homer has more mystique... but that shouldn't affect our judgement. Batting average is a very bad stat. Walks are just as important as singles: they score fewer runners, but they also expend a pitcher more, on average. OBP is a much better stat. OPS is better than OBP, and RC/27 is better than either. In those, Bagwell has the lead.
Errrr, not to be too picky here but Bonds is probably having the 3rd best offensive season. Ruth's '20 and '21 are both slightly ahead I believe. Bonds has a pretty decent shot of overtaking Ruth's '21 but if the season ended today I'd call Bond's season "only" 3rd best. Still an amazing season that I've loved watching... If Bonds doesn't get the MVP award this year I will honestly not give a **** who wins any award ever again because they will have been shown to be meaningless.
Haven, in thinking about it more I backed off from my earlier endorsement of Piazza as the better offensive player a few posts ago. But as far as using statistics in general, for measuring things like player performance (or any form of human performance) you never use only one test or measure (e.g., particular statistic). You look at many because they all are imperfect and they also typically do not give you completely redundent information. Further, if possible, you should look at a set of statistics in context that typically ins't reflected in anything we measure (the quality of players around them, more subjective elements of players contributing to team overachievment, etc). For Bonds versus Sosa, 1) the season isn't done yet, 2) we have to see how their teams finishes. The MVP award doesn't go the statistically best performing individual (there are things like the schik award to do that), but typically the most valuable player. The latter implies a subjective component that will not be reflected in statistical performance. Of course if there is a BIG descrepency in statistical performance and the better stats persons loses out, yes then the awards often appear pretty fishy. However if I had an MVP ballot I would have NOT mailed in for Bonds just yet, though he certainly is the favorite right now.
Bagwell during the 1994 strike season was the most dominant Astros season ever. He was on a pace for 50+ HRs, 160 RBIs, 150 Runs. BIG DISCLAIMER, if the strike had not occurred, Bagwell would not have reached any of those numbers as he broke his hand and would not have played very much any more that year. Scott had a great year in 1986, but he cheated. Regardless of how dominant his stats were (300+ Ks, 2.22 ERA) he was "only" 18-10.
Shame on you for leaving the Toy Cannon off the list. Just because he had the misfortune of playing in the Dome when it was even more pitcher friendly than it was in the 80 's he isn't as well regarded as he should be. The man could mash... I'd also consider Biggio's 96 way up there in terms of best seasons by an Astro.
Mike Scott is widely rumored to have scuffed the ball. No proof was ever found and he was checked on the mound on more than one occasion but the perception is still there. I think it is likely but I've never seen proof one way or the other.
Scott was notorious for scuffing the ball. During his starts numerous balls were generally found with scuff marks, however, any time he was checked by an umpire, his "implements" were not found. I don't remember the book, but it described a time when Doran swallowed a piece of sandpaper before the umpires saw it. There were other instances of that sort described as well. JR was truly dominant during his time. In particular, he was most dominating shortly before his stroke. One of the reasons the Astros did not think he had a serious problem was because he was so effective.
Really? I remember it, but I thought he was innocent. I thought Gary Carter stateds that they were just playing mind games with him. I do remember him tucking something in his shirt when questioned once. Who remembers the Joe Neikro saga?
It was when Niekro was with the Twins. As the umpire came out to inspect him, he flipped an emory board out of his pocket in plain view of everyone in the stadium. He used the excuse that he was using it in the dugout to file down his fingernails and "forgot" it was in his pocket.
Mike Scott was clean. He had an unhittable pitch. One that I haven't seen since. The thing just dropped off the edge of a table. Haven't seen much better in terms of just being unhittable.
Heaven: You have got to be kidding me if u think that Bagwell is better than Chipper jones. First off, people who think that Turner Field is a hitters park need to recheck there info, because TF is widely known as a pitchers park. As a matter of fact, it is considered the worst hitters park for LH power hitters, and since Chipper Jones generates most of his power from the left side, his numbers should be considered very deflated. Fred Mcgriff once said that his career was severely damaged playing in turner feild. Your assessment that Bagwell played most of his career in a pitchers is true, so his numbers don't represent his true talent, well then why hasn't his numbers drastically increased after coming to worst pitchers park. Chipper jones is a true leader...well atleast of the braves offense. Also MLB doesn't just give out the MVP award to a player without a leadership skill. I would take Chipper over Bagwell any day of the week and i am pretty sure that by the time he is 31, his OPS. will be higher than Bagwell's current career OPS.
